Cleaning pistons and Valves

[DiverRay]

also, i can still see crosshatching on the cylinder walls.... just to let you know.

Just follow the pattern that is there! A moderate speed is good, same as a car.

[petejw]

hey Austin,
If your going to put back the original rings and you can still see a hatch pattern and the bike has only done about 10,000miles I wouldnt hone the cylinders,
unless like DiverRay said, there are shiney patches on the bore. Why remove unwanted material from the bore if you dont really need to, also you wont need to seat the rings.
With regards to the carbon ring around the top of the bore 'they' say not to remove this unless your honing or boring, the idea of leaving the ring is to help prevent oil passing the top ring producing burning oil, so reducing any engine smoke.
Did you end up doing a leak test on the valves of the head?

[trbig]

I agree.. if there's still a cross hatch pattern, I wouldn't do a hone. Some people think of honing as an aftethought... but it's probably close to as important as the boring. MOST people aren't going to do it correctly with a hand drill on a work bench. Arrange the ring gaps into the proper spots and throw it back together.

Just my opinion...


Tod

[DGXSER]

I've always wondered how the heck you get the honing to be the right angles trying to match speed of drill and speed in and out of the cylinder. That would seem to take some really good timing and or alot of practice or both.

[trbig]

I've never understood people hesitancy about removing the carbon ring. It's simply a spot where nothing hits or rubs, so carbon forms there. Your piston is only next to it for a millisecond, then the pressures are there to hit the rings at every other point in the stroke. This carbon isn't a magic "4th ring". It's like worrying about taking carbon off the cup of your valves in the combustion chamber. It's just there because nothing is keeping it from NOT being there.

Knock it off of there if you want... don't if you don't feel like it. 100 miles down the road, it'll be back.

Tod

[kirmit77]

that will save time

Im pretty sure they are okay so im goint to clean them up and maybe put back on today....

wait, no. I still need that darn engine gasket set! dang

and as far as doing a leak test... there is no need. one of the valves is stuck open and they need new seals so ill do a head job and lap them

Its coming along good but now i just need to find someone who will paint the frame!

[trbig]

So is it stuck open from rust.. or is it bent?

Tod

[79XS11F]

I've never understood people hesitancy about removing the carbon ring. It's simply a spot where nothing hits or rubs, so carbon forms there. Your piston is only next to it for a millisecond, then the pressures are there to hit the rings at every other point in the stroke. This carbon isn't a magic "4th ring". It's like worrying about taking carbon off the cup of your valves in the combustion chamber. It's just there because nothing is keeping it from NOT being there.

Knock it off of there if you want... don't if you don't feel like it. 100 miles down the road, it'll be back.

Tod

Many years ago in high school auto class we were told not to remove the carbon ring at the top unless a hone was being done or new rings were going to be installed. Apparently the engine will burn oil if the carbon ring is removed without a hone or new rings.
Rob

[79XS11F]

For cylinder DIA I was also told in the same auto class that a properly honed cylinder actually has a slightly smaller DIA because the walls are roughed up by the process. I would guess that it depends on if your removing material or just scratching up the surface of what's there.
Rob

[kirmit77]

valves

stuck open from just carbon build up i think. im going to make a make a ghetto compressor today i think so i can take them out. still gotta order that gasket set from partsnmore

So i need a straight answer on the carbon ring. DO IT OR NOT?!?!?

[trbig]

If you're worried about it.. don't remove it. If you are going to hone it, you'll have to to get the proper hone from top to bottom. I will say that I, personally, have always removed the carbon ring, only done a hone one time when putting old parts back in (Which I have done 5 or 6 times) and never had an oil burning issue. This was with different motors, so it's not like that was motor specific. I personally think it's an old wive's tale thing.. like never jump start a bike with a running car battery. And like I said... that ring will be back there.. ESPECIALLY if it's burning a little oil.. within the first few hundred miles.

I had to tear into my motors for different reasons for the first three years. In that three year's time, I never had to change the oil because it needed it. I would never get 3k miles out of one until something else messed up. That's what I got from piecing together used parts from different motors and trying to make one work. My riding style didn't help that any, I'm sure... I always cleaned off this carbon ring, and it was always back again next time I tore into it.. so definately within 1-2k miles.

So.. if you're scared to.. don't remove the ring. It won't hurt anything to leave it if you're putting the same pistons back in the same holes. If you want remove it.. it's not going to hurt anything either.

I think you're better off worrying about getting the cylinders slipped back over the pistons/rings without breaking a ring than the little carbon ring. THAT is the tough part. The last motor I did, we had enough guys there so each of us could watch and squeeze the rings on one piston (Four of us). That made it really really nice.. but not always practical.. lol.

Tod

[79XS11F]

A quick search for "carbon ring in cylinders" bough up several results and i read a few of the ones that were actually about this ring at the top of the cylinders. they all say the same thing.. If using the same pistons and rings the carbon ring is not to be disturbed or excessive oil consumption will result.
Here's an example link for honda rebuild go to page 165.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ROM...um=2&ct=result

Rob

[trbig]

or excessive oil consumption will result.

Like I said.. All I can tell you about is from personal experience. I've never had any problems from removing it and have always put the same piston/rings back in with these motors. (Except for this last big bore I did)

So you have opinions on both sides. It's up to you to make the choice.. not us.

Tod

[kirmit77]

the main deal

i want this done right and i do not want to have to go back and pull everything off again..

when i get back to the house ill decide on what ill do. Ill put some pictures on here but i think i am going to hone. also i found a c clam style valve spring compressor at sears so we will see about those valves.

Also, Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has been helping me through this. For a 19 year old, i think it would be cool if i got it all running and clean. Its a big accomplishment.

Oh and i think im getting that gasket set for my birthday on tuesday!! always love free stuff!

[DGXSER]

The Devil inside...

Playing Devil's advocate here, the down side to removing the carbon ring is possibly lost oil sealing. Other than removing built up gunk inside your engine, the up side is ??? IMHO, how much buildup can possibly accumulate in under 10k miles?? So remove or not you can't be talking about much.

If your honing the cylinders new or used rings, they will need to reseat, and then I fail to see what is different than the engine rolling off the factory floor. I feel pretty certain they don't pre-install that carbon ring at the factory and I feel pretty certain they do not blow oil couds during break in. If your NOT honing, then I maybe see the point of not removing it as there is no reseating to be done. JMHO.