One guy gets it... (Political)

[Toolmaker Tim]

Unions

When the first unions were started, they were very much needed. Abuse of employees and unsafe working conditions were the norm. That was good. When they started setting pay regardless of proformance or ability things went bad. The storys of workers threating others because of work ethic was one of the reason my dad quit as a steward and became a supervisor.
I just found out my uncle's shop, where I started in the machine trade is closing. We made parts for the MX-1 tank that became the M1A1, and the YF-17 fighter prototype that became the f-18 Hornet. We did a LOT of defense work. It's gone now.The shop has been around since 1958, the auction will be soon I'm sure. Why, no orders.
Things will get better eventually, but they are going to get worse first. The Great depression harden out grandparents and parents so they could fight WWII. Unfortunatly that's what usually happens in history. We forget the past and have to do it all over again.

[planedick]

Sometimes I wonder

If I should not have started this thread. I really do enjoy a good political discussion as there is so much I can learn from the rest of the world on these things. I don't think I know much about politics, but then again I never tried to learn much about it. I learned enough to know that I don't want to be a politician because I am one of those that follows my heart and would be considered a loose cannon. I did a job for CalTrans here in CA once and that was what I was labeled because I wouldn't turn a blind eye to unlawful tactics. They wanted me to certify machinery to be UL approved when it was made in China and was anything but UL approved. They wanted to move a company to Riverside so they could build a freeway over the site and the city wanted assurances that the machinery was safe and UL approved. The machinery in question did not carry any type of certification at all, no UL, CE or anything close. They did pay me well to quot prices so high to bring them up to standard so there was enough money to buy new machines. When the company bought more offshore machines that were not approved I complained and they said I was a "loose cannon" and so I won't be getting anymore work from them....

As for starting this thread, I've learned that some get a little hot headed and can't be nice, but for the most part we can disagree without being disagreeable.

[madmax-im]

Nah...

Dave dont worry abt it...this topic is accepted here in the off topic forum.It really doesn't matter what we're discussing.There will always be opposing points of view.Its up to each of us to discuss rather than cuss.I dont always agree with political threads,but times are hard and these thoughts are prominent in many people's minds.Myself included.Like Tod said we're one big happy family...most of the time...but even families have their disagreements.With the exception of one person this has been a civil discourse.Merry Christmas!

[red bandit]

I will be leaving for my Christmas vacation in the morning. So please everyone keep things on a civil note....until I get back. I don't want to miss anything!
Don't drink more than me....or I will feel like I failed you.

MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

[psycoreefer]

I worked 7 years in a union shop and I worked my ass off as did a lot of my coworkers. I'd say that I earned every bit that I was paid, its the few that give the many a bad name, and the unions protect them. If Unions don't want a bad rap then they shouldn't be protecting the jobs of people who don't want to work for their money. I made 14.00 an hour for a part time job and got full benifits and thats a hell of a deal but I was physically exhausted every day when I left at the end of my 4 hour shift.

One guy I worked with would regularly show up for work drunk, had physically assaulted other employees, would yell at supervisors etc, he got fired at least 15 times that I know of over the course of the 7 years I worked there, that is twice a year and each time he would file with the union and get his job back. The joke was that if you wanted a couple weeks vacation all you had to do was punch your boss in the face. They finally drew the line and fired him for good when he pushed a women volunteer who wouldn't let him drive onto a parade route, in public while wearing the company uniform. Its people like that that the union should say enough is enough and let them be fired, I'm all for protecting the rights of workers, as long as the workers are respecting the rights of the employer.

[Toolmaker Tim]

Discussions

If you look at the word "discussions", you will see the word "cuss" in it. Sort of apropriate. There is nothing wrong with this one. Hopefully we don't lose a member over it. Like others I like other peoples point of view, as long as they aren't nasty or pushy about it. Psycoreefer, has a good point. As a moldmaker I have been told we are so slow that if we dunked a cookie in milk, it would be dry before it touched our lips. Like psyco,when I leave work I am totally whipped. Not all Union workers are slackers, the same way not all pitbulls are viscious, not all gun owners are murderers, and not all motorcycle riders are reckless. What ticks me off is the slackers are protected, know it and rub everyones face in it. Human nature I guess. Yeah , I'm frustrated about the direction we as a country are going, and maybe I am wrong. What can you do? Just what we are, voicing our opinion.

[DGXSER]

I will say that union has nothing to do with people slacking and trying to get away with it. I have seen that everywhere, but ussually they get fired. As has been stated, the union seems to want eveyrone to only work as hard as the least capable or lazy person will go. They want those dues to build their business regardless of who is paying. Its liek the public bid market, who ever puts the lowest bid in gets the work, reputation means nothing. You can do the crapiest job every time, and sue for huge change orders that are not owed, but as long as you are low bid and can get a bond, you get the job.

My first job out of college was at a union shop, I was in the design team in the office. One day I got deligated to QC. Had to watch the union team assmeble all of the components for a big overseas shipment and then load it on the trucks. The load had to go that night. We worked from 7 Am until late in the night, and yes most of the guys were working their buts off. We had to switch trucks as one was loaded and needed to move the ramp. I told one of the guys to grab the other end and help me move it. He said "No, I'll wait for one of my union buddies to move it with me." I told him to get the other end, he refused to touch it. Since I was the supervisor in charge and it was on OT time, I sent his but home for the night, told him we did not need him any more tonight. One of his "union buddies" walked over and gladly helped my move it. No one missed him that night.

We do need to wake up and start supporting our own country, but then we also need to wake up and demand from each other and ourselves the best we can do. If you belong to a union that supports the lazy goof offs, get out of the union. Yes it will mean taking less pay for the same work or a tougher time finding a job. Especially if you live in a town that was built to support one company/plant. Maybe it means you have to move. I feel bad for someone in that situation, but until enough people say ..well..enough, then how does the culprit realize its wrong? It strikes me it is a symptom of the times. When I was younger, if someone bumped your car and dented it, they left a note saying sorry, here is my name, number, address, etc. And no Prom, I do not think they wanted a date with me. Now they look at anyone who looks interested like they will kill them if they talk, or just move their car somewhere else and dare you to prove it was them. Just another symptom of the ME ME attitude along with the current "age of instant gratification" we live in. And no I do not claim to be innocent.

[Montreux_Blue]

I will say that union has nothing to do with people slacking and trying to get away with it.

I blame management for allowing the slacking. My company used to have a union (Fire Sprinkler Fitters Local Union 669) but our company fought them in court to break away from it back in 1993. Our management still sucks.

[prometheus578]

A different society we live in today, DGXSER.
Ever sit back and wonder why?

[DGXSER]

Yep I do Prom, especially when I see it start to show in my kids, we have "meaningful discussions" about it then.

[Dan Hodges]

Enforcing The Law

Dear Dsxs11,

First, my condolences with regards to the personal situation you are in, your job, the Auto Makers, US govt., etc.!! I can understand your angst and frustration, and the need to VENT to anyone who is willing to listen.

Secondly, a brief explanation about this website. It was created and is still owned by the Webmaster, who set up the guidelines for its use, as a place for information exchange, to be able to find/sell parts/bikes, and also for a place to chat about things other than bikes, oil, tires, hence the Member's Lounge. But it was the Webmaster's wish that these "chats" be done in a civil toned, mannered and courteous way, without making personal attacks on the members. Politics and religion are 2 very volatile topics, but are still happily accepted and encouraged as topics for "Intelligent and Courteous DISCUSSIONS", but when they break down into personal attacks against other members character, intelligence, etc., that is where the line is drawn.

Regrettably, you have crossed that line a few times in this thread, however due to the concern of the Moderators for the well being of the site, and in trying to maintain a civil tone to this thread, a couple of your less than proper comments were editted/deleted, so that the membership would not be offended, but in so doing, the EVIDENCE was also removed from public scrutiny.

In your anger, you also lashed out at at least one (that I know of) of the Moderators(Prom) with a personal character attack in a PM. A discussion in the ADMIN section regarding your recent actions is currently underway. I have posted that I can "sorta" see your side of things in your personal situation, and can understand your anger, frustration, etc.. I also stated that these circumstances do NOT justify your otherwise rude and improper behavior, but felt that a FINAL PUBLIC warning if you want to call it that, would be given/posted, just to let you and the membership know that although we feel your pain, that your CHOICE of how you wanted to post it would determine your status here at Channel 11.

Some of your more recent replies/posts in this thread have been on a more factual, or even opinion based style, without any personal attacks towards the membership/Moderators, and so I am hoping that you are coming to realize that you CAN have an energetic debate without resorting to bullying tactics? The ball is in your court. I'm not expecting or asking for any apologies to those that you have offended....but would be a step in the right direction...even just privately in a PM to them. But aside from that, it is my hope that you will conduct yourself and your posts and replies in accordance with the guidelines and spirit of this website.
Sincerely,

Dear T.C.: I have been in law enforcement most of my adult life and I commend you on your tactful but professional way of policing Channel Eleven and keeping all of us on the straight and narrow and maintaining a clean and decent house. I was never a buisness man nor a union worker and so I'll keep my opinions to myself regarding this issue while realizing that our beloved country has fallen on hard times however we have been through hard times before and if each of us keeps our senses and does our part a new day will dawn and like the old military saying, things always look better in the morning. America and it's people have been living beyond their means for several years and it was only a matter of time before the bubble burst and that time is here. We are all in this together whether it be as a common Indian/laborer or a Chief/CEO and one is just as important as the other. It has been my experience that education is almost always a necessity for advancement/success in the world of today no matter what your field of endeavor might be...........unless your daddy is/was rich or you have connections. Yes I know, there are people who have made it with little formal education but they are the exception not the rule. Labor and management must work together if we intend to make it in the 21st. century. How much money does it take to be rich? It depends on who you ask. Thanks so very much and may God bless everyone here for a safe, healthy and prosperous New Year and let us hope A.I.G. doesn't run off to the Camian Islands with my annunity as I hate having to go over choppy seas to kill people. Dan.

[fredintoon]

Advice from the past

Here's a quote from a 1930s novel (Nevil Chute's "Ruined City") that featured the adventures of an investment banker:-
" I'd put all my money into gold. Not the certificates, the metal. I'd put it in a safe in my living room and sit in front of it holding a revolver."

[Dan Hodges]

To Have And Have Not

Here's a quote from a 1930s novel (Nevil Chute's "Ruined City") that featured the adventures of an investment banker:-
" I'd put all my money into gold. Not the certificates, the metal. I'd put it in a safe in my living room and sit in front of it holding a revolver."

Life is all about choices and for numerous reasons the before mentioned would be an unwise one. Actualy, todays market is an opportunity for those who seek it.

[trbig]

I'd put it in a safe in my living room and sit in front of it holding a revolver."

for numerous reasons the before mentioned would be an unwise one.

EXACTLY!! Because all the crooks carry semi and full auto stuff!


Tod

[fredintoon]

Consider the times

Quote:
I'd put it in a safe in my living room and sit in front of it holding a revolver."
Quote:
for numerous reasons the before mentioned would be an unwise one.
Quote
EXACTLY!! Because all the crooks carry semi and full auto stuff!
Tod
>
Hi Tod,
yeah, these days it'd be one of those drum-fed 20-round mix'n'match ammo recoilless shotguns?
But back when Nevil Chute wrote that book an English author's idea of a
good handgun was a Webley .455 service revolver. Yes the .45 ACP had been
around for decades by then but along with the European semi-auto pistols the
Brits of that time thought them unreliable.