One guy gets it... (Political)

[trbig]

Everyone's age differences aside, (Mentally AND physically..) stating FACTS is allowed and encouraged. Attacking someone such as calling them an a@@hole or something.. even though in Prometheus' case this is a usually a fact.. it's also an opinion that is best kept to ourselves.

Attack the facts in the letter.. not the people posting it.

With the fact that UAW employs THOUSANDS of people, to say they are all lazy and fat isn't going to be a true statement. I work for the highway department, so everybody thinks I lean on a shovel all day.. so be it. We get a lot of work done for people that sit around and do nothing. BUT.. to defend the UAW and say that there aren't lots of people that do exactly as the letter states.. and if there weren't people that have seen lazy state workers leaning on a shovel while 5 watched.. these things wouldn't be thought of.

I am sorry for the predicament you are in with your employment.. I really am. But I do agree that there is no place in government to bail out businesses that fail. That includes banks. Stick with the backing of FDIC insured money so the people can still get the money that they put in the bank.. unlike what happened in the depression when the money was just gone... but let the businesses fail. It's a terrible, harsh lesson.. even more so for the people employed by them... but when you can expect to be bailed out of tight spots due to bad management.. why would you change anything?


Tod

[Dsxs11]

So I take it your mortgage is a bailout? your car payment a bailout? As I recall GM and Chrysler asked for a federal LOAN. if your not sure what LOAN means it's when or BORROW MONEY AND PAY IT BACK. The banking industry on the other hand got a BAILOUT and went on vacation, Then refused to give credit to anyone. I have credit score over 900 I had a hard time buying a new truck last week it took 5 days to get a bank to even look at the loan. I ended up paying cash in the end. Last year I walked in the GM dealer bought my wife a new SUV and was in and out in an hour with new truck in had.

Everyone wants to say I make to much money and it's the UAW's fault. Well never once did Rick Wagoneer Bob Lutz or any exec has ever walked on the floor and asked us what we should build or where we should supply the part from. It's NEVER happened. I make 4700.00 a month BEFORE taxes Rick Wagonner makes 1.3 Million a month plus stock options and bounuses. when you figure the yearly payroll of my plant is less then what the CEO makes in a month who really is the problem?

When you all get your wish and the Big 3 fail. I want you to think back to December 7th 1941. And ask yourself if China or Japan were to attack again(japan) would Toyota or Honda pitch and build our weapons?

[planedick]

I found out

I know now why the post was deleted. It seems some of us can't state their view without calling others names. When you stated you made $4700 pretax monthly you forgot to add the benefits that the company has to pay that makes your yearly salery $100,000. I don't believe everything I hear or read or see and I like hearing other peoples view, sans name calling. I don't agree with the bailout of AIG, or any other big financial company as they are the ones responsible for the mess we are in. I do understand that the government is made up of idiots, liars and crooks and they certainly don't know how to solve problems except to throw your money at it.

[Dsxs11]

lets see my benefits. 36k a year in pension. Blue Cross where I pay 100.00 per office visit. manditory use of medco for perscriptions. takes a week to get a perscription filled.
My wifes County benefits are 0 copay on office visits 5 dollar copay on all prescriptions anywhere and her pension is 52k a year and we make about the same hourly. GM WILL NOT let me opt out of medical. and we can't carry her's with mine being mandatory by my EMPLOYER. The UAW asked for an opt out in the las contract and GM refused.

[planedick]

Man oh man

Do I know how to start a ruckus or what?????? I will admit I have learned lots of things and unlearned some others.

[John]

It looks like I missed all the action, but I will say this about unions, as I am a member of the TWU, local 513 here in the Dallas area, and have been for over 20 years. They are still good for maintaining a man's salary, and benefits, though I see that eroding also. One thing I do see them good at is saving the job of the most worthless, lazy, stupid SOBs that the Company ever hired. Back in '01 we had signed a new contract that brought us up to $70k a year. Does anybody here think $70k is a good salary? Who here makes more? What kind of work are you in? Would you dare to speak up if you did, or are you afraid that somebody will accuse you of being grossly overpaid for your labor. If we had no union, everytime the cost of oil increased, managment would try, no, WOULD force us to take a paycut, to cover the increased costs, but they in turn wouldn't touch their precious $250k a year 'entitlement'. They are, after all, the brains that keeps the airline flying, hence keeping us employed. We ( the pilot, flight attendants, and ground workers unions) ran off one CEO when we learned about the bonus package managment was about to receive. I do agree about the unions protecting the bad workers though. It is a shame to watch these lazy ba$tards do nothing, or if they do something it is wrong, and will need to be redone. The union doesn't want to know about these guys. "Just keeping another Union brother off the streets" is basically the response you here from the union stewards, and section chairmen. I'll bet that union attitude has been prevailant for many years, and nobody likes change, especially if it requires working harder, or producing a better product. In my own shop that is a BIG problem, especially since the concessions we gave back to the company in '03. How about $12k a year for starters. Then a reduction in sick time from 12 days a year to 5, and you only receive 4 hours pay for the first two consecutive days. Or the loss of 7 paid holidays? The increase in insurance premiums? Mine went from $90 a month to over $300. We have guys that say well, if they take 10k from me, then I'll just give them 10k less work. I say it's hard to give less than the nothing you give now. Management is partly responsible for this because there is no quality checks done on the work that is put out. Many times, a piece of equipment that has just undergone it's quarterly 'pencil whipping' or PM check as it is called, won't even make it from the shop back to the terminal because of something, oh let's say a wheel bearing that hasn't been lubed in a couple of years fails, because nobody bothered to see if the work has been done properly, or even done at all. Nothing is done to these guys, and to be truthful, I'd like to see the lazy SOBs fired, and the management replaced. It makes every one of use who does give a #### look bad, and I'm tired of repairing it.
SO, if you are one of the lazy, stupid union members who just screws off because he knows he can get away with it, then all I have to say to you is "Get up off your fat, lazy ass and pull your share of the load, and take some pride in your work. No matter how well the guy down the line does his job, it's your $#itty work that's going to take the entire product down when that product hits the market. So stop whining, get off your lazy ass, and start working to build a better product. Just because you are union member, that doesn't give you the right to do poor, if any, work.
If you are one of the union members that still gives a damn, and does the best job he can, I applaud you and say keep it up. After all, someone has to carry all these lazy POS's that don't"

[Dsxs11]

You've done what thousands of people have done. caught the buzzword "bailout" And then armchair quarterbacked the whole thing. See it's personal for me I work for GM. But being at one time or another either salary hourly or union I've seen all side. we have 390 hourly in my building 119 salary. we DO NOT build cars we supply dealer parts. we average 1 supervisor per 4 hourly. My department has 30 people and 7 supervisors. Supervisors have a base of 75k plus they get paid overtime.(bet you didn't know that one) they take the base salary break it down hourly and give supervisors time and a half. so before benefits my 7 supervisors make 100k each plus they have a really good health plan no copays anywhere for anything. The UAW has given back money for years no raises though the 80's no pay raise the last 3 contracts but a COLA roll in (GM loves that it's cheaper then a raise) We agreed to the VEBA and have offered to run the pension, ( I'd never be able to retire) Managment has given nothing back. it use to be a department of 50 had 1 supervisor and my plant manager had the same buick for 2 years. Now it's a new Caddy every 3 months and a company credit card and he drives home every weekend to Indiana from Michigan. Just and FYI rate in my building is 128 lines per hour where I work only 4 people out of 30 make rate or less everyday and they all have 30 years the rest of us usually hit 180-220 lines per hour.

[Bigfoot]

As I recall GM and Chrysler asked for a federal LOAN. if your not sure what LOAN means it's when or BORROW MONEY AND PAY IT BACK.

One major problem with this. The big 3 went to congress asking for a "loan" without showing the ability to pay this loan back. As you stated you had a hard time getting a loan with great credit. So why would anyone give a poorly run failing company billions in loans when that company cannot show how it is going to turn things around and be able to repay the loan. Until they make some major changes, and that includes getting labor costs in line, giving money in any form including loans just delays the inevitable. It is just a waste of taxpayer money.

I have also seen reports in the media that the UAW contract has provisions that pay 95% of salary if an worker is laid off. What a sweet deal. I would like to take a 5% pay cut and just sit at home. Please let us know if the media had this wrong. It is things like this that have caused the lack of sympathy that you see now for the UAW workers.

In my opinion. The unions have had the auto makers over a barrel for quite some time now and we are seeing the results of that now. The big 3 have other problems besides the union but this one is major and is making the difference between a viable, profitable company and a company that is circling the drain.

I believe that the only real solution is to allow them to go into chapter 11. This will give them the ability to actually re-organize. With the UAW unwilling to give up anything to help in this crisis, bancruptcy would give the companies the ability to negotiate a new contract or break the union completely.

[madmax-im]

Yeah it's perfectly fine to offend the EMPLOYED UAW member. But god forbid he defends himself and others with actual facts. Being told to grow up by an unemployed 56 year old is laughable. I assume in the spirit of Christmas I'll be EDITED AGAIN then Banned.

You have a perfect right to disagree and state your case...what you dont have a right to do is resort to name calling ...profanity and rude or obnoxious statements that have no place in this forum.I am all for opposing points of view...thats how we learn,but please do it it a manner of civility and maturity that one would expect on this forum.With the tone of comments that have been deleted its no wonder the traffic is down...but there is no reason for me or any other mature person to find this acceptable.

[Dsxs11]

95% of pay laid off if lasts less then 13 weeks this is state unemployment law not UAW. then guaranteed income stream (subpay) kicks in after unemployment is exhausted and pays 85%. The UAW has agreed to end the jobs bank and subpay. matter of fact the UAW is open to go to the table. GM management is unwilling to give up anything. Wagoneer and Lutz have mansions and yachts to pay for. I just have a mortgage and car payments and kids.

As for Loans go Chrysler in 79 had no ability to pay back that 1.5 billion but paid it back plus 350 million in interest.

[planedick]

Funny

Funny how things begin to come out full in a discussion like this. Dsxs11 begins to uncover the real truths and problems with the UAW and more importantly, management.

My first job was in a union shop and the first night I found it was easy to make 3 times the production rate which was supposed to be 3 times the pay. The next day my timecard was not there and the union steward and shop foreman told me to, "Slow down kid, you make the rest of us look bad." I said, "Screw you, I want to make money" and they said if I did that then the time study man would retime the job and no-one would make any money. I quit that job and never worked for a union shop again. I always got good pay, good raises and benefits because of my work ethic, not because of a union. Unions have outlived their usefullness and employees should be rewarded for their quality productivity and work ethics.

[Bigfoot]

95% of pay laid off if lasts less then 13 weeks this is state unemployment law not UAW.

Do these state laws apply to all workers in the state or just UAW workers?

[oseaghdha]

I think the thing that irritates me the most about unions is that a young kid can come in and bust ass, do a great job. Slowdown comes, and who gets it in the neck? Yeah, the guy that's really working, not the duffer making tops doing nothing more than putting gaskets in a box.

I know that as a salary guy my medical was thru the roof, while the "brothers and sisters" were bitching about $10 copays.

I think there needs to be a ratio for exectutive salary to hourly salary, some of these people get bizzarro money for screwing up companies, but the overall hourly salary is always the biggest elephant in the room when it comes to shop rates.

The UAW is claiming to be willing to give up some of the pork, but it remains to be seen. The fact is that they have taken advantage and grown fat on the dime of the workers and the corporations for a very long time.

I see some fat union guy on TV in his oak paneled office and $300 pen set whining about they can't give up any more. The union executives are a bunch of greedy bastards no different from any of the other politicians or VPs or hedge fund robbers you read about.

The whole thing is disgusting.

[Pat Kelly]

Here's a game we can play......
Name American auto makers that have gone out of business:
AMC
Edsel
Hudson
Bear
REO
Dusenburg
Stutz
Packard

You add more

[madmax-im]

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