One guy gets it... (Political)

[Dsxs11]

Ron Gettelfinger president of the UAW makes 150k a year. Rick Wagoneer CEO of GM makes 22 million a year. which one has run his company bankrupt. Last I knew the UAW had operating capital and strike fund money and their half of the VEBA. It's GM and the 10 Billion a year in compensation to the top 20 executives that can't come up with their share. I'm all for stings attached to the loans but not on the backs of the working class again. See I don't care either way I can cash my seniority out for 140K today.I owe less then 20K on the house and both cars are paid for.GM goes bankrupt you the tax payer gets to pick up 500,000 pensions.That's just GM I think I read the math on that come out to a little over 1 trillion dollars.

Yes it's 95% of your pay laid off for 13 weeks here. The subpay/GIS is a union thing.

[Dsxs11]

Auburn
Cord
Nash
Tucker
Plymouth
Desoto
Fraiser
Kaiser
Durant
Oakland
Willys
Overland

Funny thing about that list Preston Tucker told a federal court and congressmen in 1948 during his trial that someday we would be buying our good from our enemies. They laughed at him.

[Ivan]

Here's a game we can play......
Name American auto makers that have gone out of business:
AMC
Edsel
Hudson
Bear
REO
Dusenburg
Stutz
Packard

You add more

Edsel was a model of Ford, was it not?

[Dsxs11]

No Edsel was it's own brand under the Ford banner. Like Lincoln and Mercury.

17.3 Billion in loans to GM and Chrysler and I have to take a pay cut but the executives get to keep what they are "entitled" to. God I love republicans they would do anything to make sure the rich get richer.

[fredintoon]

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Yeah it's perfectly fine to offend the EMPLOYED UAW member. But god forbid he defends himself and others with actual facts. Being told to grow up by an unemployed 56 year old is laughable. I assume in the spirit of Christmas I'll be EDITED AGAIN then Banned.

Hi Dsxs,
I truly hope that you are still an employed UAW member after the current downturn in the US auto industry comes to it's end. As you find being told to grow up by an unemployed 56 year old to be laughable, let a retired 71 year old discuss your being edited.
Did you use 4-letter words or make ad hominem attacks? Those'd get edited for sure and IMHO rightly so. I am sure that if the exact same thoughts had been expressed politely they would have appeared in full.
It's like talking to your overweight auntie.
If you say "You are fatter than a breeding sow but you are not as good looking." you will get cut out of her will.
OTOH if you say "What a pretty dress, it really suits you, I didn't know US Tent & Awning did ladies tailoring." you might get away with it.

[prometheus578]

"Choices."

Hahhahaaaaaaaaa....
Thanks Fred,
I've been sitting here all serious for about an hour debating just how to address the way this thread has turned.
Several thoughts: (and they all revolve around the truism that "You only get what you ask for."
Hey, if'in you don't like that some clown in management makes $22,000,000 a year, then why aren't you in management?
Who's stoppin' ya?
The only reason that you're a line worker in some factory is because YOU chose not to get a degree in management.
I have no love for CEO's, bankers or investment brokers... and I think the money they make is obscene. But, I CHOSE not to be a CEO, banker or investment broker.
The guy nextdoor to me... with the $400,000 house and all the toys... he repairs elevators for a living. I hate him.
Actually, I don't, he's a regular guy... but I can't gripe about what he gets paid. Wasn't it not my choice to NOT go to "Elevator Repair School" (if such a place exists?)
If you don't like what you make, or what your benefits are... what's stopping you from going somewhere else?
Limited job skills?
That's your fault, not mine. (or managements)
"It's not fair that the man who owns the company makes all this money and I get paid crap and have no benefits..."
Hey... if you're so skilled and in such high demand, go work elsewhere.
I didn't like making $10 an hour at an independant bike shop... so I went down the street to Kawasaki and doubled my pay.
Maybe that option isn't available to everyone... True, but also maybe your job isn't as important as you think it is.
You get paid only what an employer thinks your job, or skills are worth. If you think that you're worth more, go find a place that thinks the same. Just don't be insulted when you find out that their opinion of you doesn't match your own.

There is no censorship of ideas on this site. We do not delete threads due to differing ideas or opinions. We do delete threads when people demonstrate their inability to conduct themselves in a polite and civilized manner.
Again, this is a choice that some people make... and we feel that people should be responsible for their words and actions.
I haven't yet seen a copy of what was originally written... Diver Ray saw fit to edit that thread and issue a friendly warning against name calling and cussing.
You see.... Diver Ray is a moderator. He is a friendly and easy-going guy. His function here is to see that things roll smoothly and everything remains civil. This is what Moderators do.. they moderate things. (Look it up if you don't believe me)

Oh, but it's that thing about people making personal choices again.

Sadly, the next choice that was made was in a reply to Ray for doing his job.

Sort of gets back to the worker/management thing...
I mean... just for experimental purposes.... let's have everybody try this:
Go into work tomorrow and say to one of the supervisors,(you know... the people that run the show)...
walk up to one of them and say, "Hey, *** you!"
Now, remember... this is a choice that you're making.

Ahhhh.. it never ceases to amaze me... the things that some people chose to do, whether they be employees or members of an internet discussion group.

I assume in the spirit of Christmas I'll be EDITED AGAIN then Banned.

As one of the elves around here... I've already given my recommendation on this matter to Santa.
Sometimes... even bad children get what they want for Christmas.

[Big Daddy Funk]

Ideas Wanted

It is unfortunate, but many people will be losing their jobs and many companies will go under during the next year or two.
My questions are; is all this money being spent to prop up the economy in the best interest of the citizens as a whole? Who gets to decide which jobs and companies are worth saving? Are some citizens more valuable than others or are they all equal? With all the money being thrown around the entire world is there not a better way for governments to support their citizens in a time of need? I think we need some fresh ideas.

[Dsxs11]

Yeah I walk up to my supervisor everyday and say ****you he replies in kind then I buy coffee. If you think I care if I get banned over hurting your feelings your SADLY mistaken.

I mean come on the managment of this board has turned it into a what tires what oil and ATGATT threads with no real answers anymore. I assume at some point it will be use the search function we can't be bothered. If it makes you feel like a man to edit a post and ban me feel free.

[trbig]

If it makes you feel like a man to edit a post and ban me feel free.

Maximan?? Is that you?!?





Tod (Instigator..)

[Toolmaker Tim]

Studebaker
Deloran
Studebakers were made right here in South Bend. When they went under the after effects are still being felt. That's not the bad part of it. In the last 30 years we have lost the following: Wheelbrator
Bendix
Dodges
Huckens Tool
South Bend Lathe
South Bend Tool and Die
Automatic Molded Plastics
Mastic
Scott Brass
O'brien Paints
Uniroyal Rubber
Sibley's Foundry
American Tool and Die
Capital Technologies
South Bend Plastics
Thermoplastics
Most of these were union jobs. My Dad worked 30 years for Dodges Manufacturing as a machinist and a supervisor. He was also a union stewart for a while. No love lost for the unions here. In the last 5 years we have lost the majority of our good paying tool and die and moldmaker jobs. They were sent to China.They use government subsidized machinery and materials and want Most Favored Trade privilages. Huh? The fact of the matter is we have no voice in what is happening. We don't have enough money to interest the ones who manipulate everything. I don't believe there is an answer to what is coming. It's time to bring our troops home, not because its an unjust/just war. We are going to need them to keep what we have.

[planedick]

Another one

A good one I think was Studebaker, but alas, gone too.

[DGXSER]

Facts of Personal experience

I worked for GEAE for 5 years. In that time I saw one person turn a bolt once and never saw a machine in operation. I can also state for a fact that the union had a rule that if you fell asleep at your work place, you could only be woken up and no other disciplinary action could be taken. I also know for a fact that people who produced more than their quota of parts in a day had their car doors welded shut, or their cars turned upside down. I also know that a 54 year old woman had a rock thrown through her living room window with a note about her working to fast. She showed up at the plant with a .357 and put it to the steward’s head. I was there when the police took her away. As of now, the parking lots there are a ghost town. They moved the entire production and operation to change things. The city where the plant is struggles badly.

We have lost several GM plants and Ford plants are dwindling, we have two fairly close Toyota plants and Honda just built a new plant less than an hour away. I know that I was told by a former employee of a GM plant that he worked the door stamping machine at the old Fischer Body plant (GM) and when he stamped triple his quota, he was told to slow down, he said no way and continued, the next day his steward told him he was making to many defective parts he needed to slow down. He asked the steward to show him the defective parts, the steward grabbed a hammer and started picking up the door skins beating them with the hammer one after another, "there is the defects."

As to TRBIGS statement, I also worked for the local utility for 7 years. I was in the office, but had many friends who worked on the trucks and at the power plants. I certainly am not going to stereotype that ALL of them are lazy idiots and hold up shovels, but I also know that it takes the same size crew to replace a fuse as it does to replace a transformer in a major substation. I also know for a fact that there was an area of one plant where the operators set up a small lounge, it had only a recliner, a TV and some books and films...and kleenex. Use your imagination. This is where you would find the night shift. For the Utilities, well, it is good to be a monopoly.

All that having been said, it is ALSO just as much the problem of the management that these banks and companies are in such bad conditions financially. When a normal company has a bad year, NO ONE gets bonuses or raises no matter how good they worked, been there done that. I agree completely that the owners/CEO/CFO/COO of such companies need to either reinvest what they took out and used to buy that fifth yacht, home, whatever back into the company. If they are not interested in doing so, then the company will go under. IT sucks, but hey Guano Occurs.

The first place I got a job at out of college (yes I am a college grad) had been in business since 1859, I started there in 1987, the family that had just bought the place started out by remodeling the presidents office, the VP of Marketing’s office (his wife) and the "Board Room" more commonly known as the conference room. He also made a REALLY stupid engineering change to the product that saved the company $5 a panel but cost them their reputation and alot of business. I left in Sept of 1989, the bank foreclosed in May of 1990. I knew 5 people with over 40 years at the company that were left with no pension no anything. Does that suck, yes. Do I think someone should have saved the company and let them continue, no frickin way.

My idea is this, if we are going to "Loan" this money to these companies including the banks, then we should mandate that the senior management is changed out in both the company and the unions since they are more or less partners in the business, and it should be mandatory that the managing partners/CEO etc pay back anything over an AVERAGE salary for that position among all banks and or manufacturing companies, to include any and all performance bonuses they have earned in the past 3 years.

[planedick]

Yeah

Here, here. It probably would work, but anyone, including government officials, who set their own salary, isn't likely to abide to save a company.

[planedick]

Someone's idea

When a company falls on difficult times, one of the things that seems to happen are they reduce their staff and workers. The remaining workers need to find ways to continue to do a good job or risk that their job would be eliminated as well. Wall street, and the media normally congratulate the CEO for making this type of "tough decision", and his board of directors gives him a big bonus.
I feel our government should not be immune from similar risks. I therefore am recommending the following cuts to be implemented by the next president elect.


Reduce the House of Representatives from the current 435 members to 218 members and Senate members from 100 to 50 (one per State). Also reduce remaining staff by 25%. Accomplish this over the next 8 years. (two steps / two elections) and of course this would require some redistricting.

Some yearly monetary gains include:

$44,108,400 for elimination of base pay for congress. (267 members X $165,200 pay / member / yr.)

$97,175,000 for elimination of the above people's staff. (estimate $1.3 Mil in staff per each member of the House, and $3 Mil in staff per each member of the Senate every year)

$240,294 for the reduction in remaining staff by 25%.

$7,500,000,000 reduction in pork barrel ear-marks each year. (those members who's jobs are gone. Current estimates for total government pork earmarks are at $15 Billion / yr)

The remaining representatives would need to work smarter and would need to improve efficiencies. It might even be in their best interests to work together for the good of our country?

We may also expect that smaller committees might lead to a more efficient resolution of issues as well. It might even be easier to keep track of what your representative is doing.

Congress has more tools available to do their jobs than it had back in 1911 when the current number of representatives was established. (telephone, computers, cell phones to name a few)

Note: Congress did not hesitate to jump on a train for home this week when it was a holiday, when the nation needed a real fix to the economic problems. Also, we have 3 senators that have not been doing their jobs for the past 18+ months (on the campaign trail) and still they all have been accepting full pay. These facts alone support a reduction in senators & congress.

Summary of opportunity:

$ 44,108,400 reduction of congress members.

$282,100,000 for elimination of the reduced house member staff.

$150,000,000 for elimination of reduced senate member staff.

$ 59,675,000 for 25% reduction of staff for remaining house members.

$ 37,500,000 for 25% reduction of staff for remaining senate members.

$ 7,500,000,000 reduction in pork added to bills by the reduction of congress members.

$ 8,073,383,400 per year, estimated total savings.

Big business does these types of cuts all the time.

[Bigfoot]

Not all CEO's are bad. Steve Appleton, CEO of Micron Technology in Boise, ID. After the dot com bust Micron was in a tough spot. Rather than lay off more employees Appleton gave back his salary for the year. He also did not take a bonus that year. He saved a significant amount of jobs.