Who do you like?

[prometheus578]

Do stay, MysticRider...
Opposing views are always welcomed... or at least, they should be.
Only by exposing one's self to differing opinions, can one test the strength and validity of their own convictions.

Socrates stated that "True wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing.".
Start with a mind clear of emotions and preconceptions... and build your opinion based on facts that you've found along the way.

All opinions can be expressed here... and all opinions challenged.

If your facts beat my facts... I will change my opinion.
(This is as it should be)
If your opinion is not based on facts... I will make you cry.
(This is... just how I am!)
HAHHAHahahahhaa

[Montreux_Blue]

I have only one thing to say.

The Electoral College consists of 538 popularly elected representatives who formally select the President and Vice President of the United States. In 2008, it will make this selection on December 15. The Electoral College is an example of an indirect election. Indirect election is a process in which voters in an election do not actually choose between candidates for an office but rather elect persons who will then make the choice. Electors are technically free to vote for anyone eligible to be President, but in practice pledge to vote for specific candidates and voters cast ballots for favored presidential and vice presidential candidates by voting for correspondingly pledged electors. It has been proven before that whoever wins the popular vote doesn't always win the Electoral College vote. In the elections of 1824, 1876, 1888, and 2000 the candidate who won the popular vote did not win the Electoral College vote. It could happen again, or not.

[mysticrider]

Once again. I'm sorry. I was being civil. I wasn't trying to cause trouble. This all started because I was trying to PREVENT hard feelings. Tempers were a little high this year and I was just expressing my opinion that it was time to let it go. I had no idea it would create such an uproar. I tried to be funny towards the end to show "no hard feelings" and once again I was misinterpeted. Please no more. I'm leaving. Thank you all . And please no more post- enough is enough. I think Prom. said enough for everyone. It's past time to drop it. It wasn't my intention to intrude. I really can't believe all of this.

[kf4anm]

As another average middle class far from wealthy individual I must admit to not being super thrilled with the results. However after careful thinking and pondering I have come to this conclusion. The more things change the more they will stay the same. Sure we worry about the socialistic overtones because of democratic control. I theorize that congress and the senate are full of greedy fat cats with their best interest at heart. So even though change is good and they are democrats all on a big happy control trip I wouldn't imagine they are going to do anything to radical as to interrupt their gravy train. Plus by time they get through playing the blame game it will be time to elect new senators anyway and things will balance out.

Just in case I am going to pack my springfield in grease seal it in a pvc tube and bury it in the back yard with a wad of cash, a bag of pesos, and box of little debbie nutty buddies.

Why is the Libertarian party sounding better and better everyday/

[madmax-im]

Pass the Popcorn...

[mstic2000]

The country has spoken. The majority is ready for change. You can whine or we all can come together. It's a free country. It's up to you. I for one am happy we have an African-American President. It's about time. I'm glad I got to see it in my lifetime. I'm a college educated, middle class, middle aged white male. I listened to both McCain and Obama and what they had to say. It is no surprise to me that Obama won. Most people I've talked to who are disappointed never listened to either candidate. They base their disappointments on "White-Republican" vs. "Black-Democrat." No wonder they are disappointed....Maybe this is the wakeup call the GOP needs to understand they need to change as well. Now I wonder how long before we will have a black GOP presidential candidate in this country?

[Ivan]

SOmeone had the "Bright" idea that the church and state should be seperate..

Well, that was actually an idea in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to church leaders guaranteeing them that the government would stay separate from the church. The context is often, nearly always, taken wrongly. He was referring to preventing a state sanctioned religion. Not banning religion in politics. Not trying to trample on you there Tod, I do agree with your statement, since so many do take "separation of church and state" out of context.

Speaking of state sanctioning. I have no clue how anyone can support government administered health care. This thread in its self is one of millions of examples that the people don't trust the government. That is ubiquitous regardless of party lines. I don't trust politicians any farther than I could drop them. WHY THE SAM HELL WOULD ANYONE WANT THEM DECIDING IF YOUR CHILD QUALIFIES FOR A NEW KIDNEY OR WHAT MEDS YOUR WIFE IS ALLOWED TO HAVE? Come on now. The government never has anything but the law makers pocket book at heart. To think that they give a rat's raw rump about our health is preposterous.

Last rant. Barak is not black. His mother was whiter than Hitler's Youth. If my father was full blooded Souix, and my mother was Full blooded Scottish, neither side would accept me as fully Souix or Scott. What gives? While his father was African, but Barak was American, then Indonesian, then African, then some obscure tribal faction, then back to American, then the Lollipop Kids, etc and so forth. So I don't buy African-American either.

/rant off

/flame suit on
[check flameproof status]
/if flameproof=true then "submit reply"

[DJinNH]

The country has spoken. The majority is ready for change. You can whine or we all can come together. It's a free country. It's up to you. I for one am happy we have an African-American President. It's about time. I'm glad I got to see it in my lifetime. I'm a college educated, middle class, middle aged white male.

I'm right there with ya. I voted McCain but there are things about finally seeing a African-American President that I see some hope in....like maybe some better race relations in the US. Just seeing all the different groups, blacks, white, hispanic, asian, males and females all celebrating for the Obama victory should be a sight to let sink in for to those who still have heavy feelings of racism. Me....I'm tired of the BS going around just because of the color of someone's skin.

Don

[egleaves]

Last rant. Barak is not black. His mother was whiter than Hitler's Youth. If my father was full blooded Souix, and my mother was Full blooded Scottish, neither side would accept me as fully Souix or Scott. What gives? While his father was African, but Barak was American, then Indonesian, then African, then some obscure tribal faction, then back to American, then the Lollipop Kids, etc and so forth. So I don't buy African-American either.

I was starting to think I was the only one tired of that "PC" title. Unless a person holds dual citizenship from Africa and America (United States of) they are not African-American. Color is no reason to label a person and I think most would agree, yet we still do. If you were born in America and live in America guess what, with few exceptions, you're an American. I can't wait until the people in this country get over the need to put an additional label in front of the word American. I hope that having a man with African ancestry as our president will make great strides in putting the racial divisions behind us.

That was my political rant/contribution to this thread. Thank you for listening, I feel better.

[DJinNH]

I was starting to think I was the only one tired of that "PC" title. Unless a person holds dual citizenship from Africa and America (United States of) they are not African-American. Color is no reason to label a person and I think most would agree, yet we still do. If you were born in America and live in America guess what, with few exceptions, you're an American. I can't wait until the people in this country get over the need to put an additional label in front of the word American. I hope that having a man with African ancestry as our president will make great strides in putting the racial divisions behind us.

That was my political rant/contribution to this thread. Thank you for listening, I feel better.

Since my ancestors came from mostly Ireland, I guess I would be considered a "McAmerican"....or maybe an "O'American".

Don

[planedick]

Lie clocks

A man died and went to heaven. As he stood in front of St. Peter at the
Pearly Gates, he saw a huge wall of clocks behind him.

He asked, 'What are all those clocks?'

St. Peter answered, 'Those are Lie-Clocks. Everyone on Earth has a
Lie-Clock.

Every time you lie the hands on your clock will move.'

'Oh,' said the man, 'whose clock is that?'

'That's Mother Teresa's. The hands have never moved, indicating that she
Never told a lie.'

'Incredible,' said the man. 'And whose clock is that one?'

St. Peter responded, 'That's Abraham Lincoln's clock. The hands have moved
Twice, telling us that Abe told only two lies in his entire life.'

'Where's Senator Obama's clock?' asked the man.

'Obama's clock is in Jesus' office. He's using it as a ceiling fan

[Incubus]

Most of the Founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists - particularly Jefferson.

Patrick

[cruiser]

Simple explanation for redistribution of wealth.


A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so
many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat,
and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to
support more government programs, in other words... redistribution of
wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch
Republican, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that
she participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt
that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what
he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher
taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed
objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she
indicated so to her father.

He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA,
and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking
a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no
time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time
for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she
spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?'

She replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy
courses she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on
campus. College for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the
parties, and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because
she's too hung over.'

Her wise father asked his daughter, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's
office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend Audrey
who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that
would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily
fired back, 'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked
really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I
worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
Republican party.'

[Jerry]

Electoral College info

Here is a good and brief explanation of the Electoral College.

How does the Electoral College work?

Each state has a number of electors in the Electoral College equal to the total of its US senators (always two) and its representatives, which are determined by the size of the state's population. Technically, Americans vote for the electors not the candidate.

California, the most populous state, has 55 electoral votes. A few small states and the District of Columbia have only three.

There are 538 electors in the College. In all but two states, Maine and Nebraska, the College works on a winner-takes-all basis. The winner of the popular vote in a state gets all the Electoral College votes in that state.

To become president, a candidate needs 270 Electoral College votes. The winning candidate does not need to win the national popular vote.

Why was the system chosen?

When the United States was founded, a national campaign was almost impossible given the communications; states were jealous of their rights; political parties were suspect and the popular vote somewhat feared.

The framers of the Constitution in 1787 rejected both the election of the president by Congress - because of the separation of powers - and election by direct popular vote, on the grounds that people would vote for their local candidate and the big states would dominate.

Another factor was that Southern states favoured the College system. Slaves had no votes but counted as three-fifths of a person for computing the size of a state's population.

The original idea was that only the great and the good in each state would make up the electors in the Electoral College. Over the years the College has been changed to better reflect the popular will.

Isn't it unfair that the winning candidate might get fewer popular votes?

This is seen as a major drawback of the system. In 2000 Al Gore won 48.38% of votes nationwide compared to George Bush's 47.87%. Ralph Nader took 2.74%. Yet Mr Bush won because he got 271 Electoral College votes compared to 266 for Mr Gore. The winning votes came from Florida whose 25 College seats all went to Mr Bush despite the difference between the two in the state's popular vote being only 537.

A similar thing happened in 1888 when Benjamin Harrison won in the College despite having fewer popular votes than Grover Cleveland.

Another drawback is that in many states the result is a foregone conclusion and there is thus little incentive for the individual to vote. It is also a disincentive for candidates to campaign there.

So what are the advantages?

The Electoral College system is respected for its historical roots and because it does usually reflect the popular vote. It also gives greater weight to smaller states - one of the checks and balances the US Constitution values.

For example, the largest state, California, has 12.03% of the US population but its 55 Electoral College votes represent only 10.22% of the College total. Wyoming, a sparsely populated state, has 0.18% of the US population but its three seats in the Electoral College give it 0.56% of the College votes.

The College system also means that a candidate needs to get a spread of votes from across the country.

What happens if no candidate gets a majority of Electoral College votes?

The decision is taken by the House of Representatives, because its seats are in proportion to the population and therefore reflects the popular will better than the Senate. Each state delegation, however, has only one vote, which means that the majority party in each delegation controls the vote. An absolute majority of states is required for election.

The vice-president is chosen by the Senate, with senators having an individual vote.

Are the electors in the College bound to vote for their candidates?

In some states they have a free vote but in practice they vote for the candidates they are pledged to. In other states they are required to do so. From time to time, individuals or small groups, called "faithless" electors, vote for another candidate but this has happened only rarely and no result has been changed by it. In 2000 an elector from the District of Columbia abstained.

If the result is extremely close, a "faithless" elector could cause real trouble. The issue would probably have to be decided by the courts.

The electors are chosen by the parties before the election, often in a vote at a convention. The electors then meet in state capitals after the election (this year on Monday, 15 December) to cast their votes. The results are formally declared to the Senate on 6 January. The new president is inaugurated on 20 January.

[boyat68]

Brings to mind the Aaron Burr and Thomas Jefferson election of 1800. AB and TJ each got the same number of electorial votes (73?). In those days the candidate with the most electorial votes got to be president and the candidate with the next highest votes got to be vice-president. TJ and AB hated each other and Alexander Hamiliton stepped into the picture and convinced congress that TJ was the better choice, thus TJ was appointed president and AB got to be vice. Four years latter AB got even with Alexander by shooting him dead in a duel.