Who do you like?

[planedick]

Redistribution of wealth

Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read
'Vote Obama, I need the money.'

I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a 'Obama 08' tie, again I laughed,
as he had given away his political
preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him
that I was exploring the Obama
redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told
him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in
need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server
inside as I've decided he could use the money more. The homeless
guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized
the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn,
but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even
though the actual recipient deserved money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept
than in practical application.

[planedick]

Who did what...

The pivotal issue is which party is perceived as owning the blame for
the near economic collapse of our country.
Obama & the Dems. placed this on Republicans & Bush as being
anti-regulation of the home financing corps & McCain is another Bush.
In 2005, after it was exposed that Clinton's ex- budget director Raines
had cooked the books and looted Fannie of between $90 to $240 Million
as Fannie CEO, the last chance to save the economy from the collapse
of Freddie and Fanie, was the Sen. Hagel (R) regulation overhaul bill
co-sponsored by John McCain.
On Oct. 20 the AP IMPACT report exposed that though Freddie Mac,
through lobbying, got 8 Republicans to not sign a letter demanding that
the Banking Cmte. passed bill be put to a vote, Obama and all other 44
Dem. senators opposed regulating Fannie. With 53 senators opposed (45
Dems) or not supporting it (8), the bill died by July 2006 and in less
than 2 years, their collapse led to the near collapse of the financial
system (Wall St.). As I wrote & called the McCain 5 days ago, it
should pound into voters' heads that Obama & the Dems. have
continuously lied to & deceived the American people.

R. Frank Fernandez, Esq. Las Vegas, NV

[Winterhawk]

Very well said Ivan

I'm out of this thread, rawk on tinfoil dudes

Apparently the information you have about 9/11 came from the FOX news network.

I've spent thousands of hours in research on this event and I am right, case closed. 9/11 was an inside job without a doubt along with the Oklahoma Federal building bombing.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

[mstic2000]

Ahhh, the politics of deception.

As our country becomes more split between "left" and "right" there is no return to the common good. Generalized citizenship has been subtly obfuscated from any form of the truth, neither you nor I would know if it were tattooed on Lady Justice's exposed breast.

...don't you mean split between the haves & the havenots? Split between the upper class and the lower class? No middle class left behind....

[Jerry]

As I wrote & called the McCain 5 days ago, it
should pound into voters' heads that Obama & the Dems. have
continuously lied to & deceived the American people.

Actually, neither party has been completely honest. However, the current collapse goes back farther than 2 years. Do a search on CDS (credit default swaps) and CDO (Collateralized debt obligations) credit products.

Speaking of CDOs:

OK, so what are we really talking about here with these so-called CDOs?
CDOs were created in 1987 by bankers at Drexel Burnham Lambert.
Wait a minute.
Did you say Drexel Burnham Lambert?
Isn't that the same firm that was driven into bankruptcy in 1990 due to illegal trading in junk bonds driven by Drexel employee Michael Milken?
And did you say they were created in 1987?
The same year the market crashed?
And wasn't the 1980s known as the "Decade of Greed"?
Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
So let's see if we got this right.
Today, in 2007, the market for securities that were created in the "Decade of Greed" by a firm that was only a short time later forced into bankruptcy due to illegal trading in high-risk bonds is grinding to a halt?

President in 1987: Ronald Regan. Republicans also controlled the Senate. As I mentioned in an earlier post, CDSs were deregulated in 2001 by a Republican House, Senate, and President. These 2 instruments, one created under a Republican administration and the other deregulated under a Republican administration, set the scene for the financial collapse we have today. The attempt to blame the current mess on a 2006 bill that did not address either of these 2 credit instruments is laughable.

The Democrats in 2006, as today, do not control the Senate. There are 49 Republicans and 49 Democrats, plus 2 independents, Lieberman and Jeffords. Lieberman regularly appears at McCain rallies and was often discussed as a Republican VP candidate. Therefore Republicans have the power, by joining or not with the Dems, to kill or pass legislation. Had the Republicans favored more regulation, and they don't, then regulations bills would have passed. The fact is that Republicans did not want to add regulation, and they got their way.

Folks, I am not making this up. You can check out any of these claims with a few minutes of web research.

By the way, go to factcheck.org. Here is an interesting tibit:

An ad released jointly by the McCain-Palin campaign and the RNC claims Obama "rewards his friends with your tax dollars" and calls his actions "unethical." Some of what the ad says is false or misleading. Here are the facts:
The ad claims that Obama supporter and Chicago real estate developer Allison Davis received $20 million in taxpayer money. That's false. Davis didn't get this money. Instead, the federal grant went to the Chicago Housing Authority, replacing money it had already put forward for a mixed-income housing project on which Davis was a developer. The grant didn't go to Davis, nor did it help him pocket any additional funds.

Another part of the analysis states:

Sen. John McCain's campaign and the RNC have spent $5.9 million so far airing the ad in 17 states, including Pennsylvania, where $1.2 million has been spent on the ad, and North Carolina, where it has aired a total of 1,629 times, according to the Campaign Media Analysis Group of TNS Media Intelligence. The ad started airing on Oct. 14.

In other words, the McCain campaign is spending big bucks to spread this lie. Both sides have stretched the truth (Biden talks about Iraq's 80 billion dollar surplus, it is actually closer to 40) and both sides overstate the amount of money going out for oil, its closer to 540 billion and about a third of that goes to Canada, Mexico and the UK, not to the mideast. However, McCain hold the lead for outright lies, such as claiming Obama was responsible for a bill that taught comprehensive sex education to pre-schoolers. That one ran many, many times in Colorado.

McCain released an ad claiming that Obama's "one accomplishment" in education was "legislation to teach 'comprehensive sex education' to kindergarteners." That's false. The bill was hardly Obama's accomplishment as he was not even a cosponsor, and in any case, the bill didn't make it out of the state Senate.

So, why vote for a candidate who has consistently pushed ads that do not merely try to distort his opponent, but are based on outright lies?

[Ivan]

Very well said Ivan



Apparently the information you have about 9/11 came from the FOX news network.

I've spent thousands of hours in research on this event and I am right, case closed. 9/11 was an inside job without a doubt along with the Oklahoma Federal building bombing.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

If I am so well stated, why then are you referring to a British site for truth of American happenings? Did you not read what I posted?

For you to say that the Federal Building bombing was an inside job is a grave insult to the families of those that died there. You see, conspiracy theories are just that, theories. It doesn't take a genius to make explosives, or to make a shaped charge out of a parcel van.

Saying that the September 11th event is an inside job is beyond any shred of decency. If, in fact, it was a government job, why would the government target their center of intelligence? Please no links to Zimbabwe or the antarctic expedition to answer that question. Only non circumstantial evidence.

Sorry, but spending thousands of hours peering into the dull glare of a computer monitor delving into conspiracy sites in no way gives you the right to disgrace the memory of the fallen. Freedom of speech is not freedom of obscenity.

Here's something for your conspiracy theories. I live about an hour and a half away from Herington KS, which should ring some of your conspiracy bells. I have had the opportunity to work in the town on several occasions, and have met several people who live in the community. Let me tell you this, that would not be the town to mention your "inside job" thoughts in.

I realize that I will never change your thoughts, and that I will ruffle your feathers, but when you say "I've spent thousands of hours in research on this event and I am right, case closed", you're going to get schooled. I figured I would try to do it as nicely as possible.

[Ivan]

So, why vote for a candidate who has consistently pushed ads that do not merely try to distort his opponent, but are based on outright lies?

Because Palin is a hottie?

[Winterhawk]

For you to say that the Federal Building bombing was an inside job is a grave insult to the families of those that died there

http://www.google.com/search?q=offic...x=&startPage=1

Now I've heard it all...LOL Am I the only one who does any investigating of these events.

If you would of listened to the OKC news you would of heard about the unexploded devices on the inside of the pillars. You would of also heard about some of the FBI agents being called to stay at home that day. This building was blown from the inside out. The officer who found the unexploded devices has since been murdered.

Anything else you want to know about these false flag terror acts don't be afraid to ask.

At the same time, CNN reported:

“The Justice Department is reporting that a second explosive device has been found in the A.P. Murrah Building in downtown Oklahoma City. Mike, you’re still with us aren’t you?”
[Mike Arnett, an attorney in downtown Oklahoma City, on phone with CNN] “Yes, and in addition to that, what we were told at the scene a few minutes ago was that in fact two different explosive devices were found in addition to the one that went off, for a total of three.”

Another reporter for KWTV stated:

“It has now been confirmed through federal authorities that a second bomb has been found inside that federal building in Oklahoma City.

http://operationawakening.wordpress....news-left-out/

Better wake up and see the corrupt ones in our Government.

[DJinNH]

http://www.google.com/search?q=offic...x=&startPage=1

Now I've heard it all...LOL Am I the only one who does any investigating of these events.

If you would of listened to the OKC news you would of heard about the unexploded devices on the inside of the pillars. You would of also heard about some of the FBI agents being called to stay at home that day. This building was blown from the inside out. The officer who found the unexploded devices has since been murdered.

Anything else you want to know about these false flag terror acts don't be afraid to ask.

At the same time, CNN reported:

“The Justice Department is reporting that a second explosive device has been found in the A.P. Murrah Building in downtown Oklahoma City. Mike, you’re still with us aren’t you?”
[Mike Arnett, an attorney in downtown Oklahoma City, on phone with CNN] “Yes, and in addition to that, what we were told at the scene a few minutes ago was that in fact two different explosive devices were found in addition to the one that went off, for a total of three.”

Another reporter for KWTV stated:

“It has now been confirmed through federal authorities that a second bomb has been found inside that federal building in Oklahoma City.

http://operationawakening.wordpress....news-left-out/

Better wake up and see the corrupt ones in our Government.

Is that what we are calling "investigating" these days? "I read this article, I heard this story...."

Now that's funny! I'm guessing everything Tokyo Rose said back in the 40's was true as well.

[DJinNH]

If there were any shread of fact behind all these 9/11 conspiracy reports, does anyone really think that Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Sen of NY Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton wouldn't be bringing them up to use against the "evil Republicans" in the Presidential Election? Hmmmmm....

Don

[planedick]

Do you really want know?

Blue Ridge ObserverWould the Last Honest Reporter Please Turn On the Lights?
By Orson Scott Card

Editor's note: Orson Scott Card is a Democrat and a newspaper columnist, and in this opinion piece he takes on both while lamenting the current state of journalism.
An open letter to the local daily paper — almost every local daily paper in America: I remember reading All the President's Men and thinking: That's journalism. You do what it takes to get the truth and you lay it before the public, because the public has a right to know. This housing crisis didn't come out of nowhere. It was not a vague emanation of the evil Bush administration. It was a direct result of the political decision, back in the late 1990s, to loosen the rules of lending so that home loans would be more accessible to poor people. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were authorized to approve risky loans. What is a risky loan? It's a loan that the recipient is likely not to be able to repay. The goal of this rule change was to help the poor — which especially would help members of minority groups. But how does it help these people to give them a loan that they can't repay? They get into a house, yes, but when they can't make the payments, they lose the house — along with their credit rating. They end up worse off than before. This was completely foreseeable and in fact many people did foresee it. One political party, in Congress and in the executive branch, tried repeatedly to tighten up the rules. The other party blocked every such attempt and tried to loosen them. Furthermore, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were making political contributions to the very members of Congress who were allowing them to make irresponsible loans. (Though why quasi-federal agencies were allowed to do so baffles me. It's as if the Pentagon were allowed to contribute to the political campaigns of Congressmen who support increasing their budget.) Isn't there a story here? Doesn't journalism require that you who produce our daily paper tell the truth about who brought us to a position where the only way to keep confidence in our economy was a $700 billion bailout? Aren't you supposed to follow the money and see which politicians were benefiting personally from the deregulation of mortgage lending? I have no doubt that if these facts had pointed to the Republican Party or to John McCain as the guilty parties, you would be treating it as a vast scandal. 'Housing-gate,' no doubt. Or 'Fannie-gate.' Instead, it was Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, both Democrats, who denied that there were any problems, who refused Bush administration requests to set up a regulatory agency to watch over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and who were still pushing for these agencies to go even further in promoting sub-prime mortgage loans almost up to the minute they failed. As Thomas Sowell points out in a TownHall.com essay entitled 'Do Facts Matter?' ( http://snipurl.com/457townhall_com] ): 'Alan Greenspan warned them four years ago. So did the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the President. So did Bush's Secretary of the Treasury.' These are facts. This financial crisis was completely preventable. The party that blocked any attempt to prevent it was ... the Democratic Party. The party that tried to prevent it was ... the Republican Party. Yet when Nancy Pelosi accused the Bush administration and Republican deregulation of causing the crisis, you in the press did not hold her to account for her lie. Instead, you criticized Republicans who took offense at this lie and refused to vote for the bailout! What? It's not the liar, but the victims of the lie who are to blame? Now let's follow the money ... right to the presidential candidate who is the number-two recipient of campaign contributions from Fannie Mae. And after Freddie Raines, the CEO of Fannie Mae who made $90 million while running it into the ground, was fired for his incompetence, one presidential candidate's campaign actually consulted him for advice on housing. If that presidential candidate had been John McCain, you would have called it a major scandal and we would be getting stories in your paper every day about how incompetent and corrupt he was. But instead, that candidate was Barack Obama, and so you have buried this story, and when the McCain campaign dared to call Raines an 'adviser' to the Obama campaign — because that campaign had sought his advice — you actually let Obama's people get away with accusing McCain of lying, merely because Raines wasn't listed as an official adviser to the Obama campaign. You would never tolerate such weasely nit-picking from a Republican. If you who produce our local daily paper actually had any principles, you would be pounding this story, because the prosperity of all Americans was put at risk by the foolish, short-sighted, politically selfish, and possibly corrupt actions of leading Democrats, including Obama. If you who produce our local daily paper had any personal honor, you would find it unbearable to let the American people believe that somehow Republicans were to blame for this crisis. There are precedents. Even though President Bush and his administration never said that Iraq sponsored or was linked to 9/11, you could not stand the fact that Americans had that misapprehension — so you pounded us with the fact that there was no such link. (Along the way, you created the false impression that Bush had lied to them and said that there was a connection.) If you had any principles, then surely right now, when the American people are set to blame President Bush and John McCain for a crisis they tried to prevent, and are actually shifting to approve of Barack Obama because of a crisis he helped cause, you would be laboring at least as hard to correct that false impression. Your job, as journalists, is to tell the truth. That's what you claim you do, when you accept people's money to buy or subscribe to your paper. But right now, you are consenting to or actively promoting a big fat lie — that the housing crisis should somehow be blamed on Bush, McCain, and the Republicans. You have trained the American people to blame everything bad — even bad weather — on Bush, and they are responding as you have taught them to. If you had any personal honor, each reporter and editor would be insisting on telling the truth — even if it hurts the election chances of your favorite candidate. Because that's what honorable people do. Honest people tell the truth even when they don't like the probable consequences. That's what honesty means . That's how trust is earned. Barack Obama is just another politician, and not a very wise one. He has revealed his ignorance and naivete time after time — and you have swept it under the rug, treated it as nothing. Meanwhile, you have participated in the borking of Sarah Palin, reporting savage attacks on her for the pregnancy of her unmarried daughter — while you ignored the story of John Edwards's own adultery for many months. So I ask you now: Do you have any standards at all? Do you even know what honesty means? Is getting people to vote for Barack Obama so important that you will throw away everything that journalism is supposed to stand for? You might want to remember the way the National Organization of Women threw away their integrity by supporting Bill Clinton despite his well-known pattern of sexual exploitation of powerless women. Who listens to NOW anymore? We know they stand for nothing; they have no principles. That's where you are right now. It's not too late. You know that if the situation were reversed, and the truth would damage McCain and help Obama, you would be moving heaven and earth to get the true story out there. If you want to redeem your honor, you will swallow hard and make a list of all the stories you would print if it were McCain who had been getting money from Fannie Mae, McCain whose campaign had consulted with its discredited former CEO, McCain who had voted against tightening its lending practices. Then you will print them, even though every one of those true stories will point the finger of blame at the reckless Democratic Party, which put our nation's prosperity at risk so they could feel good about helping the poor, and lay a fair share of the blame at Obama's door. You will also tell the truth about John McCain: that he tried, as a Senator, to do what it took to prevent this crisis. You will tell the truth about President Bush: that his administration tried more than once to get Congress to regulate lending in a responsible way. This was a Congress-caused crisis, beginning during the Clinton administration, with Democrats leading the way into the crisis and blocking every effort to get out of it in a timely fashion. If you at our local daily newspaper continue to let Americans believe — and vote as if — President Bush and the Republicans caused the crisis, then you are joining in that lie. If you do not tell the truth about the Democrats — including Barack Obama — and do so with the same energy you would use if the miscreants were Republicans — then you are not journalists by any standard. You're just the public relations machine of the Democratic Party, and it's time you were all fired and real journalists brought in, so that we can actually have a news paper in our city. This article first appeared in The Rhinoceros Times of Greensboro, North Carolina, and is used here by permission.

[psycoreefer]

Pat Kelly said:I hear people talk about their vote being wasted by voting for a canidate that dosen't win. No vote is wasted. If you are the only person to vote for a canidate and they lose 300,000,000 to your 1 then it is known that not everyone wanted that winner. Some don't vote for a third party canidate because they don't want to waste their vote. I wonder if those that wanted to actually voted for that third party would have gotten them elected?

No vote is a wasted vote.

I agree, +100, everyone should take this to heart! We need change and it not going to come from the Dems or the Republicans.

[Winterhawk]

DJ you are right. And we will not see change coming from the Democrats or the Republicans.

Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura explains this in his book "Don't Start The Revolution Without Me"



http://prowrestling.about.com/od/rev...bookreview.htm

In the book ex Navy Seal Jesse Ventura talks about BU$H coming after him for stating that the WTC's was a controlled demolition. Jesse is a demolitions expert.

Both Obama and McCain are members of the Bilderbergs. These are the ones who select our Presidents.
http://www.google.com/search?q=bilde...x=&startPage=1

Jesse is an Independent and he scares them as they see a trend in Americans in leaning toward the Independent parties.

Sunday Willi Nelson and Jesse Ventura were both guests on the Alex Jones Show.
www.prisonplanet.com

Read the Media sources from Canada and overseas to see what is really happening in our Country. The USA now has 5 media giants which are controlled through the Pentagon.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/cool/giants/


Remember Descent is real Patriotism according to ourr founding fathers.
http://www.usa-patriotism.com/home.htm

[Ivan]

Here is your recipratory LOL.

You have only further degraded your stance via a plethora of non credible and circumstantial information.

The only people afraid of Jesse Ventura are probably in a large arena wearing a gaudy belt that will never hold anyone's pants up.

Come now, a former "professional" wrestler associated with truth. Surely even you must see the exquisite irony involved.

[Jerry]

planedick:

Your post was interesting, but off the mark. The financial crisis was not caused by looser rules that allowed more people to own homes, although that is part of the problem. The credit crunch problem is based on derivatives of the housing market, CDOs and CDSs. Your writer does not mention them. Nor does he reference the bill that - supposedly - the Democrats supported and the Republicans fought. Remember 4 years ago the Republicans controlled the Presidency, the House, and the Senate. If they had such misgivings about Freddie and Fanny, why did they not take any action? They had the votes and power to act.

Another issue is who received money from Freddie and Fanny. However, your writer does not include this tibit from politico.com:

At least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied on behalf of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, netting at least $12.3 million in fees over the past nine years.

Then there is this, also from politico.com:

McCain campaign manager Davis headed the Homeownership Alliance, a lobbying association that included Fannie, Freddie, nonprofit groups, real estate agents, homebuilders and consumer advocates. The group’s stated goal was to increase affordable housing. But it also worked to oppose congressional efforts to tighten controls on Fannie and Freddie.

In July 2003, Davis wrote to the American Banker, taking issue with an opinion piece by Leslie Paige of Citizens Against Government Waste, arguing that Fannie and Freddie should operate with greater transparency.

“Several of Ms. Paige’s assertions bear correction,” Davis wrote, defending Fannie and Freddie on behalf of the group. “The GSEs are subject to an innovative and stringent risk-based capital stress test — the toughest in the financial services industry.”

Other McCain aides with ties to the two companies include economic adviser Aquiles Suarez, who worked as Fannie’s director of government and industry relations; congressional liaison John Green, who lobbied for Fannie from 2004 to 2007; and finance co-chairman Frederic V. Malek, a former Freddie board member.

How 'bout that...when the dirty deed was supposed to have happened, several of McCain's current staff and advisors were lobbying to prevent more regulation. Hardly a Democratic bunch.

As for Freddie and fanny's policies of extending credit to lower income people, consider the action by HUD in 2004:

Recently, the right-wing crowd has taken to blaming Democrats for the debacle in the housing market which created the mess that we are seeing on Wall Street (and throughout Main Street) today.

Let’s take a trip in the Way Back Machine, shall we. This is from Business First - from November of 2004.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will be required to increase financing to low- and moderate-income home buyers and to increase their commitment to underserved areas under new rules by the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

HUD is requiring the two government-sponsored enterprises to make 56 percent of their mortgage activities in loans written to low- and moderate-income borrowers by 2008, up from the current goal of 50 percent. They will have to increase mortgage activity in underserved areas from 36 to 39 percent by 2008.

To meet the new goals, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae would have to purchased 400,000 more qualifying home loans during the four-year period, HUD said in a statement.

The new goals become effective beginning Jan. 1.

And who pressed these requirements into place? Bush's appointee, Alphonso Jackson.

If you don’t recall, Jackson resigned amidst multiple ethics violations and spent tens of thousands of dollars on a photo homage to himself (and President Bush) at HUD headquarters.

Do a search on Alphonso Jackson to get more details of his turbulent tenure at HUD.

As for the rest, Bill Clinton is not in this race. If McCain had wanted to run against Bill Clinton, he should have run for the Presidency in 1996. This is just another recycled "the press is biased" line. Since "the press" also includes Hanity, O'Reily, Limbaugh, Coulter, and other right-wingers like Roger Ailes (who owns Fox News), it is hard to tell just who "the press" is supposed to be. As such the writer's ranting can be dismissed.

No, the article is long on rhetoric and very short of facts. While both parties have fingerprints on this, the basic problem is the derivatives spun off the housing market. A housing market collapse could not have otherwise created a world-wide panic in credit and financial markets. HUD, under Bush, made a bad problem worse by requiring Freddie and Fanny to take even more risks. The Republicans, in trying to nail Democrats to Freddie and Fanny, doth protest to much. The Bush administration has fingerprints all over this.

Again, I would encourage people to do some background research on any / all of the allegations you come across, both in this thread and in the general environment. Its a cliche, but there is always another side to the story.