Removing Cams - Question

[Radioguylogs]

Thanks for your help bikerphil.

I do believe the starter clutch can be removed without removing the head, but the problem for me is how to get the engine out of the frame. I am considering laying the bike on the side and lifting off the frame, but I am not sure yet. The job would be more manageable if I just stripped the engine before removing it.

I didn't try running the bike with the other starter. I don't think there is any point. I can feel the original starter is OK and I can feel the clutch is sticking when it shouldn't be sticking. I can confirm a normal clutch doesn't stick. Seems conclusive. Maybe I am missing what you are thinking.

[jetmechmarty]

Hey Mike! Do you have a young strong friend or neighbor? I had great success with the son-in-law engine removal method. I don’t think it’s too bad for two people possessing a reasonable amount of strength.

[DiverRay]

I've pulled and put in an engine with the "frame lift" method and had no problems. I DO have an engine hoist to lift and lower the frame and that helps a LOT.

[bikerphil]

I didn't try running the bike with the other starter. I don't think there is any point. I can feel the original starter is OK and I can feel the clutch is sticking when it shouldn't be sticking. I can confirm a normal clutch doesn't stick. Seems conclusive. Maybe I am missing what you are thinking

Sorry, I missed the part where you rocked the bike and confirmed the starter clutch was stuck. What I was thinking is that these starters can make some disturbing noises when they need lubrication.

[cajun31]

What kind of oil do you use and what kind of oil has been used in it. There is much out there concerning using non motorcycle oil in motorcycles and how excessive sludge can form. The only reason I ask is because it might be a source of the problem. Over time if sludge has formed and infiltrated the starter clutch it may be causing things to stick. If that is the case and I mean what do you really have to lose at this point other than splitting the cases for a closer look. Before doing that, I would drain all the oil out of it and then fill up the crankcase with kerosene. Remove the spark plug wires from the plugs to make sure there is no chance the bike can start then crank the engine over several times to circulate the kerosene into everything. Let it sit like that for a few days, maybe cranking again every day. Then drain the kerosene and inspect to see if anything loosened or let go. If that proves to be successful, then you will need to change the oil a few times with cheap oil to get all the kerosene out. Might be some better alternatives to kerosene out there but I would think that it would be the cheapest. I had an old mechanic years ago tell us he did that to his car engines after so many oil changes to keep the insides clean. Really though what do have to lose?

[DiverRay]

What I've always done to clean out an engine is put Berryman's B-12 Chemtool into the oil. It will break down ALL buildups inside the engine. Start by waming up the engine a little, shut it off, at the B-12, then start and let it idle for about three minutes. Shut it down and let it set for 20 minutes. Drain the oil and change the filter, add new oil and see if the starter clutch is now free. Because the B-12 is volatile, you don't need to change the oil for a while, about 500 miles. It would be worth a try BEFORE pulling the engine, at a little time and about $14 at a high end parts store for the B-12.

[Radioguylogs]

these starters can make some disturbing noises when they need lubrication.

....yeah, sounds like a dying goose when the end bearing gets dry.

Cajun: I have used Castrol 20-50W since I rescued the bike in 2014. It has 15k miles at that time. Now it has 23k miles. Thanks for the kerosene suggestion. It is a viable option.

I like DiverRays suggestion of B-12, because the B-12 circulates to flush nooks and crannies with a strong, moving solvent. However, I can't predict how tome I might get to run the engine before it starts chewing up the starter and the starter clutch. My mind wonders if it is reasonable to pull off the starter after I get the engine running.

I had the oil pan off when I revived the bike in 2014. I had to flip it over and fix first gear through the oil pan. Honestly, the engine looked quite reasonably clean. I doubt a flush will solve the problem, but like you guys said, I don't have anything to lose compared to splitting the cases.

I am going on an RV camping trip next week. During vacation, I'll mull the plan for flushing the insides of the engine, even though I already drained the gas and the oil

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, including Marty and DiverRay's experiences on getting on the engine out of the frame.

[cajun31]

I have to admit I like Ray's suggestion about the B-12 too. Unfortunately, from what you have described it is looking like splitting the cases may be in your future.

[DEEBS11]

The recent cylinder/head work and the noise/starter clutch are too much of a coincidence. When you have a new problem you always go back to where you where just working. The issue lies there. Like something rubbing (object?) on the starter clutch. Cam chain guide issues......something. I really don't believe the starter clutch is locked up but it is giving the symptom. Something is rubbing in there. Something came loose. Something is jammed up.

[DEEBS11]

Rust and corrosion are the only actual explanation for a locked up starter clutch. Very unlikely. The broken spring theory does not hold water. The spring holds the roller against the shaft. A broken spring will only cause the opposite effect. It will make the clutch slip. I have worked on many starter clutches.

[DEEBS11]

..........

[Radioguylogs]

..........

That's where I am able to feel something is binding. I doubt it it is actually that idler gear, but I am listening if you have a thought.

I don't know how the cam chain guides would interfere unless some material came off of them.

I like your thinking that something is jamming in there. That's why my mind went to the springs and cups inside the clutch. I also wondered if I dropped something into the cam chain tunnel when I was working on it. All the parts and all the tools are accounted for.

So if we follow your train of thought, I will try using a small mirror to look in the starter hole toward the clutch. Long shot, but small effort.

Maybe I could fit a magnet through the starter hole toward the starter clutch.

[Radioguylogs]

I took it apart again and tried looking with a mirror. I can see about 1/3 of the idler gear, and I can see a few teeth on the starter clutch. Nothing worthwhile came of it.

I tried all kinds of tricks with magnets, but didn't learn anything.

I tried sticking a thin strip of spring steel around to push out any foreign material around the idler gear and the starter clutch. Nothing changed. I tried again with a steel wire, and nothing changed.

I did observe that when I am bouncing drivetrain by rotating the rear wheel in first gear, that I am am able to loosen the clutch more when the wheel is bounced in the forward direction. Conversely, if the clutch is loose, and I bounce the drivetrain in reverse, the clutch will bind easily.

It feels like the problem is inside the starter clutch, rather that piece of debris around it. However, it's hard be sure. I'm still wondering if I could have cracked the laminated substrate the holds the rollers when I did compression testing.

[Schming]

Hi Mike, here is a link to the bore scope I have found invaluable. They also sell cameras that attach to a cell phone that are less expensive.

https://www.vevor.com/pipe-inspection-camera-c_11031/vevor-borescope-endoscope-two-way-180-articulating-5-ips-8x-zoom-6-4mm-lens-p_010552491720

[Radioguylogs]

Hi Mike, here is a link to the bore scope I have found invaluable. They also sell cameras that attach to a cell phone that are less expensive.

https://www.vevor.com/pipe-inspection-camera-c_11031/vevor-borescope-endoscope-two-way-180-articulating-5-ips-8x-zoom-6-4mm-lens-p_010552491720

That's a great suggestion. I believe I will acquire one.