cylinders honed

[petejw]

hi XS1100_OEM4ME,
"I know it is after the fact, but before honneing, you should use a ridge reamer"

i agree with u totally, other than the ridge reaming and ball honing
i did exactly as u mentioned, not my first engine rebuild either.
i did mention the ridge reamer in an earlier post,
i did this job on the cheap and wanted to use what i already had,
i had the cylinder honer, the honing balls arent really necessary, they
do help with the running in of the rings sooner and give a finer cross hatch,
its not a necesity and using the stones isnt a problem,

honing,
if you were to do it properly
theres a proper tool to remove only the top ridge groove
you could use that prior to honing which would be a better/proper
way of doing it, but again im doing this on the cheap and dont have
the tool.

[motoman]

ridge present, a ridge reamer IS necessary. Honing, creating a cross-hatch pattern is done so as to trap oil on the cyl. sides for good lubrication.

[petejw]

ridge present, a ridge reamer IS necessary. Honing, creating a cross-hatch pattern is done so as to trap oil on the cyl. sides for good lubrication.

not really, a ridge reamer is usally used to remove carbon
from the top of the cylinder bore, this is more important
in cars where the piston slides out from the top of the cylinder
to prevent broken rings,
compared to a bikes engine where the pistons are removed
from the bottom of the cylinder.

if ur only removing carbon from the top of the cylinder, then that can be done by using other means other than a reamer,

depending on the miles of the engine if the bores are worn and has created a ridge, then the reamer would work, tho i got rid of the ridge
with the honing stone.

[BA80]

not really, a ridge reamer is usally used to remove carbon
from the top of the cylinder bore, this is more important
in cars where the piston slides out from the top of the cylinder
to prevent broken rings,
compared to a bikes engine where the pistons are removed
from the bottom of the cylinder.

if ur only removing carbon from the top of the cylinder, then that can be done by using other means other than a reamer,

depending on the miles of the engine if the bores are worn and has created a ridge, then the reamer would work, tho i got rid of the ridge
with the honing stone.

It's also possible to break a top ring if the ridge isn't removed and a new set of rings is installed, particularly at the RPMs these engines run.

As the cylinder walls wear and a ridge is formed, the upper outer edge of the top ring wears also and becomes rounded. New rings with sharp square edges can slam into the ridge when the piston tops out and has been known to break rings and/or pistons.

Pete is correct though. Except in extreme cases the ridge can usually be honed out.

[skipper]

Ah, guys, maybe a short primer on engine building in order here. First, a cylinder is sealed PRIMARILY by the piston, the rings are backup and oil control. Excessive clearance will have blow by even with new rings. Second, a piston will expand until it touches the cylinder wall (yes there is a thin coat of oil that prevents hard contact). There's a lot of heat absorbed by the piston crown. The only way that slug can rid itself of that heat is by close contact to the wall. Now with too much clearance the slug won't be round anymore, therefor no seal! It will also rock (slap) letting the rings rock in the bore. Again, no seal. It's not a good idea to hone a cylinder then use a worn piston. Quite possible to have a piston seize because blow by will actually melt the ring lands. A ring ridge WILL break rings and piston lands. As rod bearings wear the piston will travel upward a thou or so farther as the engine wears. New rings will be a bit thicker (no wear) and will make heavy contact with that ridge.
Sorry about the rant. I've been building engines for a living for more than 50 years. I guess I can get a little anal about the subject. Don't mean to bust someone's chops. If I offended, I apologize in advance.

[BA80]

Ah, guys, maybe a short primer on engine building in order here. First, a cylinder is sealed PRIMARILY by the piston, the rings are backup and oil control. Excessive clearance will have blow by even with new rings. Second, a piston will expand until it touches the cylinder wall (yes there is a thin coat of oil that prevents hard contact). There's a lot of heat absorbed by the piston crown. The only way that slug can rid itself of that heat is by close contact to the wall. Now with too much clearance the slug won't be round anymore, therefor no seal! It will also rock (slap) letting the rings rock in the bore. Again, no seal. It's not a good idea to hone a cylinder then use a worn piston. Quite possible to have a piston seize because blow by will actually melt the ring lands. A ring ridge WILL break rings and piston lands. As rod bearings wear the piston will travel upward a thou or so farther as the engine wears. New rings will be a bit thicker (no wear) and will make heavy contact with that ridge.
Sorry about the rant. I've been building engines for a living for more than 50 years. I guess I can get a little anal about the subject. Don't mean to bust someone's chops. If I offended, I apologize in advance.

Thanks skipper. I've been rebuilding engines 30+ years for a living myself.

I agree with most of what you've said however, used piston or not, the cylinders must be honed to insure proper seating of the rings. This is quite important since the majority of the heat is transferred from the piston to the cylinder wall THROUGH the rings and to optimize the seal of the rings.

A new set of rings on an unhoned cylinder wall is just wasted time and money.

This isn't my opinion, it's fact. Don't mean to bust your chops either.

[skipper]

Greg, you're right about the honing of course. Guess I was a bit vague. What I meant was that it sounded as though the cylinders were honed far enough to remove a ring ridge then used pistons installed. Ouch! Believe it or not, we commonly replace rings and pistons in my grand daughters rail at the track without honing, rings seat fine. 'Course they only last about two miles.

[BA80]

Greg, you're right about the honing of course. Guess I was a bit vague. What I meant was that it sounded as though the cylinders were honed far enough to remove a ring ridge then used pistons installed. Ouch! Believe it or not, we commonly replace rings and pistons in my grand daughters rail at the track without honing, rings seat fine. 'Course they only last about two miles.

Yeah, when an engine isn't expected to last you can cut some corners like that. Hell, the cross hatch hasn't even had a chance to wear off in that situation. I used to build engines for our modified stock car back in the day and it's amazing what you can get away with when all your worried about is getting through the show.

The cylinder taper on these old engines will rarely exceed .010 ie;.005 max lip and knocking it down with a hone is a common practice. Granted the proper way is to bore and fit the pistons but we own these bikes because we are cheap a$$es and don't want to, or can't, lay out the cash for such things.

Agreed, not exactly according to Hoyle but is acceptable.

It's pretty difficult to justify $2000 in machine work and parts for a $500 motorcycle. Some do it though.

[petejw]

It's not a good idea to hone a cylinder then use a worn piston. Quite possible to have a piston seize because blow by will actually melt the ring lands. A ring ridge WILL break rings and piston lands. As rod bearings wear the piston will travel upward a thou or so farther as the engine wears. New rings will be a bit thicker (no wear) and will make heavy contact with that ridge.

hi skipper,
theres nothing wrong with a good discussion,
its all good,

whats wrong with using a used piston if
its within specs, ive done many more engine rebuilds
without replacing pistons than i have replaced them,
and i think weve all agreed about the ring ridges
braking piston rings, was the reason i honed the cylinders
more to rid them.

so far so good with my engine, shes running sweet
and not burning any oil so im wrapped.

[BA80]

whats wrong with using a used piston if
its within specs, ive done many more engine rebuilds
without replacing pistons than i have replaced them

+1 Pete.............

[XS1100_OEM4ME]

Pete

hey Pete, I think your cyls look great Everyone has their own way of comming up with the same result, a great running motor I am guessing you used the honeing stones in such a way to put all the presure on the ridge till it was gone, then finished the hone of the walls and i am sure she runs great i have noticed the piston skirts on these bikes are short compaired to alot of motors I have worked on, making the tolarences more importaint, but she runs great so you must be fine, enjoy

hi skipper,
theres nothing wrong with a good discussion,
its all good,

whats wrong with using a used piston if
its within specs, ive done many more engine rebuilds
without replacing pistons than i have replaced them,
and i think weve all agreed about the ring ridges
braking piston rings, was the reason i honed the cylinders
more to rid them.

so far so good with my engine, shes running sweet
and not burning any oil so im wrapped.

[XS1100_OEM4ME]

Not overkill IMO

Those look great I don't think it is overkill at all, especialy the pollishing job. In my racing days, the high preformance pistons of the day were polished to look almost chrome They will resist carbon almost forever, and stop pre detonation, all great stuff and worth the time IMO, GREAT JOB

thanx rick,

for the ring grooves, i broke an old ring and used that to
clean the grooves,

i used a wire wheel (worn/used) on the grinder gently
for the tops of the pistons,

inside the pistons i used oven cleaner, this stuff is strong
so i let it sit for 5-10 min before rinsing but needed to do
it a couple of times then used a scourer.

for the oil holes (there was a few that were blocked) i used
a small drill bit that fitted neatly inside the hole.

i then used a buffer to polish the tops and sides,
overkill? probably but turned out pretty good and hopefully will prevent carbon from sticking.