No Oil Pressure!!

[DGXSER]

While helping a fellow member put a used engine in their bike, got to the point of starting it up. We pulled the plug wires and ran the starter in burst for a while, but the oil light never went out. So we figured perhaps a bad sensor, and put the plug wires on, got it running. Top end sounded noisy and oil light did not go off. Shut it down quick. Pulled the oil out and the tranny pan, switched for a known working oil pump. Same time checked the oil pump drive gear off the clutch from the tranny pan area and it seemed to be snug and in contact with the clutch gear. Old pump had oil in it, as witnessed by it pouring out upon the cardboard after removal. . Known working oil pump, same result!!

Any suggestions other than pulling the clutch pan and pulling the clutch to see if all is in order in there? Thanks for any suggestions!

[red bandit]

Pull the plugs out and the out pressure switch, cranck it over and see if oil comes out. Or put in a known working oil pressure gauge.

[thewiz]

If you're workin' on a Special ..

don't forget that the oil light does other indications as well the oil pressure .... like horn and stoplights. If one or the other of those is not working, that same light indicates ... can give you a scare ... don't ask me how I know

[trbig]

Loosen one of the bolts that attach the oil line from the motor to the back side of the head. See if you have pressurized oil come out while cranking. I'd pull the plug wires so it doesn't start.

If no oil, we'll go from there (Possibly a clogged line going to the head.) See if you have pressure at the bottom bolt.. if so.. tighten back up and see if you have oil at the top bolt.

Tod

[The Lorax]

We tried the oil line going to the head with the "old" pump, both ends, tried the top fitting with the "new" pump, I don't recall if Don pulled the lower fitting after we changed the pump or not. I suspect there might be something wrong in the pump drive. initially, the shifter did nothing, like the pump; pulled the shifter cover to find the shift pawl all discombobulated, we re-assembled and now the shifter appears to work. If our information is correct, the engine came out of a bike that was involved in a front end collision, that might have accounted for the shift pawl being buggered up, could a significant impact to the front of the bike have knocked some part of the oil pump drive out of whack? not much is known about this engine other than it has no oil pressure and of course will start right up...figures, I guess I'll have to bust out the service manual and read up on the oil pump drive. have a nice day and ride safe

[trbig]

These oil pumps simply don't fail.. so I would look elsewhere. There is a small gear that goes against some teeth on the back of the clutch basket. The clutch spinning operates this gear. The oil pump meshes with this small gear. The problem is.. you can't see that gear without pulling the clutch basket. You may be able to see it by removing the oil pump and looking into the slot where the oil pump gear goes, but the clutch basket is easily removed if you have a 27mm socket and an impact. If you already have the oil pan on and oil in it, this would probably be the easiest option to just pull the clutch basket. If you put the bike on the sidestand, all the oil goes to the left side of the bike and you won't have to drain it to remove the clutch cover.

This small gear that drives the oil pump is held on a shaft that holds your shift forks and is held in place on the shaft with 2 small spring clips. If the outside clip comes off, it lets the gear get out of align. Also.. with the torque of an impact and the shift forks being in cantact with gears and heavier objects, it could have flexed things in there innitially and bent that thin shaft the shift forks are on.. causing a mis-alignment of the gear also.. and a mess with the shift pawl on the other side of that shaft.

Tod

[DGXSER]

One more item I should have mentioned, the oil drained form this thing when it arrives was stated to be VERY thick sludge.

Yep, first time we pulled the uper bolt from the oil line to the head and nothing, then pulled the bottom to make sure the line was not plugged and nada. The top end sounded VERY loud, no way do I believe we had oil pressure in this thing.

Second time we pulled the upper bolt only and nada on oil. Both time we completely pulled the bolt and no oil, so it is not getting up there.

Tod gave me a thought though, when we pulled the shift fork cover, the shift pawl on the end of the shift shaft fork is the one that had slid out in front of the shiftre pawl so they no longer meshed, It has about .5" or so play in it which I do not recall mine having. The other end as stated is the "idler" gear that drives the oil pump (just switches rotation of the gear to keep the oil pump gear rotating the same direction as the clutch). That is the gear Matt checked while the pan was dropped and it felt snug and did not rotate on its own though.

Sorry I do not know how to add the circles and arrows, but I can write a paragraph (no on the back) describing what each one is......

Here is a photo from my engine dring my gear repair showing the gear in question with the oil pump still in and mated up.



I am fairly certain there is no way to get the pump bolted in without the gears meshed properly so I doubt that is the problem.

[trbig]

If that rod had any sideways movement, then one of the clips has come off. You have that rod coming through the engine case, then a washer and a clip. You have clips on both sides of the rod on the outside of the cases that should deter any horizontal movement.

As stated, those oil pumps don't fail. IF in fact you did find a bad one, the odds of finding a 2nd bad one.. slim to none. Failure of whatever is driving that oil pump gear is a much likelier option.

Tod

[DGXSER]

That was the concensus as well Tod, and the second one came from the other engine that was running fine until the valve broke off the stem and destoyed the piston and head. Matt checked and saw both the clips on the shift fork side, but we did not pull the clutch side pan. It was fairly late by the time we got this far, and I think we were all running on fumes by then, just running out of gas.

We explained to the guy how to put it on the sidestand and be able to pull the clutch pan off without draining the oil. When he gets that off he can pull the clutch off and then we will see what is under there. It may well be that the circlip on that side popped off. Then perhaps that gear is riding forward enough to disengage from the oil pump gear? Seems it would hit the clutch basket though. Anyway, sounds like the clutch pan needs to come off and then the clutch.

Thanks for all the info and thoughts!! Will let you know when we see or hear what comes of it.

[trbig]

You can indeed lose the clip on the outside of that rod/gear and not lose the gear off the shaft. The clutch basket does keep it from coming off the shaft.. whether by accident or design, when I had it happen, I still had oil pressure.

Just going off of memory.. which doesn't serve me correctly on numerous occasions... on that shaft on the clutch side, that rod has a dowel pin through it that fits in a slot in the case to kep that rod from spinning.. but should also keep the rod from sliding any further than supposed to towards the shift pawl side. That pin would have to be gone for it to do that, and may let that gear slide towards the cases too far and be against the case.. or at least disengaged from the pump gear. BUT.. you said you checked to see that it wasn't free-spinning.. so I don't know.. but I just now remembered about that small dowel pin, and I didn't see it in the parts fiche.


Tod

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Tod,

Your memory is correct, there is a small dowel pin that is molded to the shift fork shaft proximal to the idler gear for the oil pump. There is a notch cut out of the shaft near the shift lever end to allow for the large 1st/primary driven gear. With the .5" slack he described, it does sound like the inner and outer "C" clips came off of the shift pawl side, allowing the shaft to slide towards the clutch, possibly enough to let the gear slip out of engagement with the oil pump gear?? What would have been a good test was while they had the tranny pan off, would have been to turn the engine/clutch a few turns and see if they could see the idler gear spinning while the clutch was spinning.

It wasn't mentioned about whether they changed the oil filter? PO's have been known to do some funny things, like putting it in after the spring, or even no spring, etc., so that it could be blocking the oil flow to the central mounting bolt. There is also a check/bypass valve inside that mounting bolt, possibly it's gotten stuck/plugged, etc.?

Just an off the cuff question, but there is an O-ring that fits between the pump housing and the engine, hope a new one was used?
T.C.

[DGXSER]

It wasn't mentioned about whether they changed the oil filter? PO's have been known to do some funny things, like putting it in after the spring, or even no spring, etc., so that it could be blocking the oil flow to the central mounting bolt.

Yep new oil filter and o-rings all around on the filter. With four experienced folks on hand putting it back in, three of which had an eye on the assmebly, I am certain it went together correctly even if I did not personally see it.

There is also a check/bypass valve inside that mounting bolt, possibly it's gotten stuck/plugged, etc.?

That is a posibility if the newly aquired used engines bolt was reused since it had sludge like oil in it.

Just an off the cuff question, but there is an O-ring that fits between the pump housing and the engine, hope a new one was used?

Well, short answer is no...the old one was re-used when the original engines pump was installed, Thought about that, but honestly, I re-used mine when I did the tranny work and its been fine. The one used looked really good also, no cuts, or scrapes on it anywhere.

Yep, that clutch pan needs to come off and pull the clutch to have a peak.

[bikerphil]

I'd check that shift fork shaft as mentioned, making sure all snap rings are in place and that pin is in it's slot. When the clutch basket is in, which it's possible that it wasn't in all the way, you can look thru the oil pan and see if the oil pump and it's coaster gear are lined up.

[petejw]

I remember something vagally on the uk site about using
an aftermarket oil filter bolt, that was producing no oil pressure,
because of the valve set up, i think the ball was stuck to the top, if you have changed it out, might be worth looking into.

[thewiz]

Regrettably, it appears ...

that it has not turned out to be something as simple as I (and probably you too) had hoped for. Nothing like a little midsummer wrenching to get the blood pumpin' though, eh?

It's been 100 plus heat index here for several days running, and I'm damn glad that that there is an automatic opener on the garage door ... otherwise I wouldn't even go down there.