New foglights-did they fry my regulator?

[Geezer]

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over this but I use diodes in my rectifiers that are better than 2x the load capacity of the ones in the stock reg/rec unit.

you can bitch about the wiring all you want but it's up to the load it was designed for and all high draw accessories should wired in by way off a relay off the solenoid.

If you're worried about the power draw off the rectifier melting the wires in the harness. You could run 2 wires from the rectifier to shuttle power on larger wires...

I think your connection losses are over stated. I've only seen a heat loss problem on corroded connections and that's another good reason to pack connections in dielectric grease.

Geezer

[Larrym]

Relay Wins The Race.

I'm all for installing hardy components like Geezers rectifier and the fuse box upgrades. As far as hard failures go they're up to the task and not likely to be the "weakest link" in the system that'll leave one stranded without power. All the rest of the wires/connections will usually be more than enough reason to keep a multimeter along with a wiring diagram handy.

Back to the Fog lights....I second Geezer's use of a separate relay along with wire/circuit dedicated solely for the foglights. I had to do this for a friend with a Kaw police bike.

The bike had the "wig-wag" lights removed and the PO just hooked up some halogens into the light switch tied into the main fuse. Fuse got hot enough to melt the plastic holders.

Used an automotive relay (fused too) to provide power from the battery terminal itself. Also chose to wire the on/off switch so that it would only have power when the ignition was on. Otherwise the guy would walk away from the bike, forget to turn off the additional lights, and run down the battery.

HTH.

[clcorbin]

It's dead. Just like would happen if you were to pull the battery cable off of a running car while the alternator was working. Diodes blown. Output Zero.

Ok. I've seen this one done with my own eyes when I was younger. You know what happened?

NOTHING!

The car kept running. The battery was reinstalled in it's donor car and THAT car started right up like nothing had happened. Both cars where then driven home and the original car fired right up the next day when it received it's replacement battery. Nothing failed and nothing failed later down the road either.

The whole "don't remove the battery on a running vehicle" thing is NOT to protect the charging system! Remember, as far as the electrical power system is concerned (from a POWER stand point), the battery is doing NOTHING once the car is running and the battery is recharged. It's just sitting there. Again, from a power supply point of view.

The problem with removing the battery on a MODERN car (aka: fuel injection/computers) has do with what ELSE that battery is doing while it is sitting there NOT providing any power: It's filtering the power from the alternator. The power comes out of the rectifier VERY dirty. It has lot's of peaks and valleys in the voltage, which drives peaks and valleys in the current to the devices that are using this power. And that's not really good for them and CAN kill them if everything works out just "right".

But the battery is sitting there and acting like a very nice filter. It easily absorbs all the high voltage spikes while supplying current to fill in the low voltage spikes. All your computers get a much smoother and steadier supply of power when that battery is sitting there. And that helps keep very expensive electronic components from dying. Always a good thing.

Just be glad they use 3-phase alternators. Otherwise, the output voltage would look like a washboard road and I doubt our batteries could clean THAT mess up.

[3Phase]

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over this but I use diodes in my rectifiers that are better than 2x the load capacity of the ones in the stock reg/rec unit.

I haven't written one word about your regulator/rectifiers, Tony. From what I've read they're works of electronic art.

you can bitch about the wiring all you want but it's up to the load it was designed for and all high draw accessories should wired in by way off a relay off the solenoid.

I'm not bitching, I cited the facts about the stock Yamaha wiring harness and Yamaha regulator. Relax, Tony, I'm not denigrating your work.

If you're worried about the power draw off the rectifier melting the wires in the harness. You could run 2 wires from the rectifier to shuttle power on larger wires...

I'm not at all worried. I was addressing your assertion that the stock wiring harness can handle a 20 amp continuous load. That's not possible long-term even if your regulator/rectifier can do it. 15/17 amp wires will not handle a 20 amp continuous load. They'll handle intermittent 20 amp loads which is what Yamaha designed it to do, but not continuous.

FWIW I made my own mods to the harness and charging system on my bike and it's working fine but I'm definitely not trying to use 20 amps continuously. I ran #10 wire from the solenoid to the ignition switch and regulator/rectifier, then #12 to the multiplexed connections to the fuse box. The signals blink with the engine off, the bike holds voltage at idle and the headlight doesn't dim/brighten as much as it did with the stock wiring and connections.

I think your connection losses are over stated.

I haven't mentioned connection losses at all, yet, that's Larry. I cited capacity and tolerances at temperature.

I've only seen a heat loss problem on corroded connections and that's another good reason to pack connections in dielectric grease.
Geezer

Corroded and baked connections on 30-year-old bikes? Say it ain't so, Joe!

Yes, grease is a good idea but the stock wires themselves when they left the factory in Japan 30 years ago were not rated for 20 amps continuous and neither were the stock connections, which is what I wrote. Today? After 30 years? I wouldn't even try to run 15 amps continuous without mods.

It's like putting a V rated 120/90 tire on the back of the bike instead of a 130/90, then someone actually trying to go 149 mph continuous, two-up with luggage just because the tire is V rated.

So, again, relax, I'm not dissing your regulator/rectifier.


Regards,

Scott

[3Phase]

Jeez Scott,

I thought I was the only one who saw these things as wired to the same standards as a Pachinko Machine:
[...]
I knew it and could live with it.

Nah, they're not wired that badly/well and they've mostly lasted 30 years. My first bike had a 3 amp charging system. 20 amps peak is a luxury.


Regards,

Scott

[clcorbin]

I think your connection losses are over stated. I've only seen a heat loss problem on corroded connections and that's another good reason to pack connections in dielectric grease.

Geezer

They are. That 95% number for a soldered connector is talking about the resistance of the EQUIVALENT length of wire! Have you ever tried to measure the resistance of a 1/2" long piece of 12 awg wire??? That would be around 6.5E-5 ohms! Your hand held meter can't measure it (yes, it WILL give a number, but it won't be accurate). Heck, I don't think my 6 1/2 digit HP 34401A bench meter can measure that.

Wait. I just checked. That meter's BEST accuracy on the 100 ohm range is still only 0.003 ohms. That is two orders of magnitude larger than the resistance we can expect to see in that connector, so it's pretty much useless for measuring the resistance of that little 1/2" long piece of wire as well.

I only bring this up as someone was talking about 5% here (100-95=5%...) and 5% there like it added up to a huge resistance. But when you are talking about 5% of such a SUPER small number, it doesn't really matter in the least, unless you have a couple of hundred connectors all on the same circuit.

Well, not while the connection is new and there is no corrosion... After that, God only knows what the resistance is going to be.

[Larrym]

I'm at a loss ...a power loss.

Sometimes this forum is just

so.....much...FUN!!

Dissention and differing viewpoints is what makes it so IMO.

Scott's not inferring that my pachinko machines are cheap...is he??(I love them so anyways: all the bright colors and flashing lights.....)

The deal about the 5% efficiency isn't just the resistance side of the equation...it's about the power. There is a 5% power loss. (P equals I squared R?? or Some other permutation I'd have to look up..) and really only comes into play when the wire/connection is operating at Maximum flow. (That don't never happen...do it??? Especially in a circuit providing/regulating power from an armature winding to the hungry-hungry hippos/components with all their mouths open wide??...)

So it's a 5% loss in Power for each connection. That adds up sorta fast. Power lost and the regulator/rectifier trying to make up for it by putting out more.

I'm glad to know that pulling the battery cable off of a running car (alternator) did at least once in the history of man not result in a trip to NAPA to get another one. Reproducible? Repeatable? Proven safe to the alternator/regulator? At least once.

Not gonna do it on my truck or my bike though. Don't wanna go through the hassle if that coin lands tail side up: last alternator cost me $90.

Darn it!! Is this something that myth-busters has disproved and I'm wrong??

( I was absolutely devastated when they proved that putting your truck tailgate down didn't actually increase one's gas mileage. Really Crushed.)

[b.walker5]

Larry..

As much as I enjoy your rather unique debating style, in this case I would suggest a little more study of all of OHMS law and equations is required here. While your at it I would suggest a little reading of Kirkoffs circuit laws and even Faradays laws of induction wouldnt go astray either. There's a lot more going on here than simple volt drop thru a couple of dodgy connectors, and your stated figure of 5% is much more likely to be on the order of 0.05% and is unlikely to add up to more than 1% over the entire circuit.

As to the original question of whether or not the extra lighting load fried the regulator, all I can say is that on these bikes it's entirely possible but from my own experience a few years back an added load, namely heated handgrips left on full heat, fried my stator windings, not the regulator. The extra load caused overheating which melted the varnish and shorted the windings. A local motor rewinder rewound it and gave me a slightly higher output by decreasing the wire size and increasing the number of turns. I dont recall the recalculated figures, although i could measure it again if i felt like it, but since then I have used the heaters on full power for long periods many times and havent had any problems since.

[randy]

Great discussion.

Brian touches on an important fact that may have been overlooked, or just not discussed. Namely that, in addition to the wires themselves, heat plays a major part in the maximum capacity of the alternator. The harder you drive the alternator, the hotter it gets. Automotive alternators have cooling fans and open frames. Ours is packed inside a sealed oven. Any attempts to increase the output should include thoughts about cooling modifications. The rotor vanes probably do a fairly good job of swirling the air around in there, but how do you get cool air in and hot air out? Holes? The brushless XS would be more adaptable than the XJ. JAT.

[XS1100 Newbie]

hey folks, i was just joking about rewiring the bike. Tony and Scott, and a bunch other guys are plenty smart enough about these things. I think if i stripped the bike down for repairs, i would be tempted to rewire a few things.

[Larrym]

Electrical Wizards Are Ordinary People Too

b.walker5,

in this case I would suggest a little more study of all of OHMS law and equations is required here.

Umm...No. Not gonna do that and for two reasons:

1. Already did that in school. Not just squeaked by enough to graduate but ended up at top of my class: Pole Position #1.

2. Any "proofs" you or anyone else with the proper background would understand/accept are too "mind-numbing" for the majority of members to be interested in.

Really would be nice if we were both in my shop where we could play on the blackboard for a while though. That whole P= I times E along with the E=I times R and the permutations/substitutions which serve to prove the 5% power loss. I remember it being a little "busy" but in the end there it was.

Now that I'm retired I don't keep reference texts around anymore. I'm on a sailboat right now so space is sorta limited/dedicated to other interests. And even if I did have the Books present I don't have a scanner to digitize the relevant pages. Plus I feel that even the really technical stuff should be explained in a way that the regular dude can understand/appreciate. So I try to say within the realm of what can be found/supported by the web like wikipedia or googling stuff.

stated figure of 5% is much more likely to be on the order of 0.05%

Yeah, I know. (and wish...) But that's where my engineer/technical training along with the "Failure Analysis" in equal measures weeded out what I and everyone else "thought" was true from what happened in the real world. (In a "what you know that simply ain't so" kinda way...) So without the "college books" I give y'all this:

The oldest telegraph splice - the original mainstay of telegraph wire connections is known, appropriately enough, as the Western Union joint. 'Cold' (that is; not soldered - just twisted together), it is about 65 percent efficient and retains about 55 percent of the strength of the wire. Soldered, it becomes over 95 percent efficient.

My "bold" of the last sentence. It's referring to the fact that the original wire without any breaks/discontinuities is at 100% of what it would be and be able to pass along in the form of max power. With the splice in place and soldered 95% of the power get's through: 5% doesn't make it to the other end of the wire.

This is the example I'm using here cause it's "out there" within reach to grab. But it's one of those "inconvenient truths" that I had to learn/apply on both the engineering side and failure analysis sides of my training/career. Thing is that cause of the math involved it really only shows up when when trying to achieve the max power transfer from one end of the wire to the other.(Low voltages but high currents cause of the way the math affects things...) Less than that and for all practical purposes it's something to disregard.

Best example I can think of right now which demonstrates that whole Resistance/voltage/power loss scenario is Thomas Edison's "Menlo Park". Tommy set it up so that the place was lit up with low voltage DC lights. People were much impressed. That is until "Tesla" started complaining about the "Power Losses". He went through the math equations and showed the "investors" that by increasing the voltage (using AC) the power loss shrank to almost nothing. The investors equated "power loss" with "$$$ loss" so they bailed on Tommy's version and gave Tesla the go-ahead.

Now when a kid shoves a fork into an electrical outlet not only do they flop like a fish outta water but they can't even let go.

IMO Tesla was a JERK.

Like I pointed out, the soldered "joint/connection" is 95% efficient. I don't see many soldered connections on my XS unless they are the ones I did myself. I'd say the efficiency rating for an unsoldered "crimp" is less than 95%. There's that and the fact that the individual components use various male/female connectors to hook up to the harness. Great for "remove-ability but at the cost of a loss present at each and every connection point when trying to pass the max power through it.

Not gonna remove all those connectors, join the wires directly, and solder them all in a heroic attempt to achieve "optimal power transfer/minimum power loss" either.

The next owner might not understand/appreciate my actions or the line of reasoning behind them.

[b.walker5]

Okay....

The whole 'Engineer vs Tradesman" thing. What the "Theory Books" say vs "What happens in the Real World". Thats a whole 'nother debate, and youre right, too mind numbing for this forum so I'm not going down that road except to say that you do know that a Camel is a Horse designed by an Engineer, dont ya?

IMO Tesla was a JERK.

Now.. Thats interesting. Without Tesla's, and Ferraris, understanding of rotating feilds in 1888 and Dolivo-Dobrovolsky development of induction motors a year later we wouldnt be having this discussion as our bikes wouldnt have the brushless alternators to generate our power in the first place. And before the next debate starts I'm well and truly aware that Faraday discovered induction, and produced an alternator, but it took Tesla and others to turn it into something really useful.

I dont think your blackboard is gonna be big enough

[Larrym]

Rightee-O.

I dunno. I guess at heart I'm such a Luddite. I could live without Tesla's wonders.

My bike would be diesel and my helmet would look like this:



That "fork in the electrical outlet" really happened. Not to me but to the little girl I was in pre-school with. Really scared me. Plus she actually peed her pants in the process. Very memorable.

Totally unfathomable how I ended up choosing to work with electricity as a career.

Next debate: Black boards versus The White Boards. ( I simply can't stand the squeaky noises those markers make...)

[b.walker5]

Hah, I was the same. Got hung up on my dads old bakalite handled soldering iron when i was 9 years old. Saw the grim reaper that day and 40 years later I'm winding down a career in electricity. go figure

[jurgenkoppen]

I am impressed, to say the least

Gentlemen,

that sure was an inspiration, an education, and a real trip into the xs11 community.
Most illuminating. I love the discourse, and the capacity of you guys to check the ego at the door...
Geezer, thanks for your warranty, I'll be in touch.
As the result of our collective head scratching, I will make sure that I will not push the envelope of the bike's capacity to carry max current any further and longer than necessary. I will implement and/ or have already done so, most of your suggestions:all clean and shiny contact with de-ox grease, relay in the fog light circuit, sparing use of those lights, LED lights where ever possible.
If/when Geezer comes up with some alternator windings which enable 40 amps or so, I'd be all ears.
I thought that somewhere on this forum last year or before, someone mentioned a member had come up with a super bright headlight solution. Does anyone recall? Because that is all I am really asking for: in my narrow, winding back roads through the BC coastal woods, I just would like to spot the deer before it is sitting on my tank.....Albeit they are as tasty as they are flighty, such unscheduled dinner opportunities can ruin one's peace of mind for the rest of the evening.
I love Randy's sign off signature, resonates with me.

Cheers, Jürgen