New foglights-did they fry my regulator?

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Jurgen,

Do a searc for HID type lighting, both alternative bulbs that can be fit into your OEM headlight, as well as extra lighting sets similar to the AUX lights you have, but use a special transformer to drive the lights, and draw less amps than conventional HALOGEN lighting!
T.C.

[3Phase]

Scott's not inferring that my pachinko machines are cheap...is he??(I love them so anyways: all the bright colors and flashing lights.....)

Not at all! Pachinko machines are cool. I like pachinko machines.

Fortunately, a pachinko machine can't kill you if it fails at 70 MPH in heavy traffic when you're in the H.O.V. lane next to the concrete K-barrier and six lanes and a concrete median away from the dubious safety of the shoulder.

I suppose I'm a little oversensitive about failed stock XS wiring. Maybe I just have a low tolerance for death or mutilation-by-large-trucks. The insulation on the Red wire at the regulator/rectifier got hot then shrank back away from the connector and exposed the wire. The wire shorted against the gas tank/regulator body and popped the 30A main fuse. Suddenly: no power at 70 MPH and nowhere to go....


Regards,

Scott <Picky! Picky! Picky!>

[clcorbin]

My "bold" of the last sentence. It's referring to the fact that the original wire without any breaks/discontinuities is at 100% of what it would be and be able to pass along in the form of max power. With the splice in place and soldered 95% of the power get's through: 5% doesn't make it to the other end of the wire.

It's this little bit that I am arguing with you on. That 95% number just means the soldered connector is 95% as good as solid wire, or, to put it another way, has 5% more loss than the wire it replaced.

BUT!!!!!

That loss is SUPER SMALL in a short piece of wire. 5% MORE loss of that SUPER SMALL number is STILL a super small number. If you get right down to it, even if the connector is only 50% as good (aka: twice the resistance of the wire) it is still not an issue as the wire has such a super low resistance to begin with.

The way I am translating what you have written above is that if I have 100 "watts" of power flowing through the wire (I know, current flows and voltage is dropped across, but please bear with me!), then 100%, or 100 "watts" makes it through that bit of wire. But if we put a soldered connector in there, it is only 95% efficient, so only 95 "watts" makes it through the connector and 5 "watts" is dumped as heat in the "good" soldered connector.

And THAT is completely wrong!

If I am misunderstanding you Larry, please clarify for me. I don't want to put words in your mouth, I am just trying to make sure we both understand what the other one is saying.

[b.walker5]

watching with interest... seems to me that the phrases "line losses" and "dissapated heat" are missing from this discussion.

[Larrym]

Power Dump to Nowhere

Clint,

The way I am translating what you have written above is that if I have 100 "watts" of power flowing through the wire (I know, current flows and voltage is dropped across, but please bear with me!), then 100%, or 100 "watts" makes it through that bit of wire. But if we put a soldered connector in there, it is only 95% efficient, so only 95 "watts" makes it through the connector and 5 "watts" is dumped as heat in the "good" soldered connector.

Uh...yup. I know that's a jagged little pill to swallow. That's "zactly" what happens when the wire is handling the "max" amount rated for the wire size. Only 95% gets through.

The wire length/gauge and all that does have an effect on the usable voltage/amperage (power) that comes out at the end. Plus the Voltage used. For example right now I've got one light (uses 1.2 amps) at the top of the mast of my sailboat (39.5 feet) and the wire gauge is s'posed to be 10 gauge according to the "rules".

What really is a beeotch is that the 5% loss is on the positive and the negative connections. That's a 10% loss whenever we "push-for-the-max" through the two soldered connections.

Me? No ego to bruise or feeling too attached to being "right". I'd like to know if I'm wrong in any situation and thank the one who shows it to me. In this situation it's not me that's right. I'm just sharing the stuff I got exposed to in all those brain killing textbooks. If they're wrong then I'm really gonna be ticked off.

I've paid back all my student loans and I don't think they'll take kindly to me asking for a refund.

[Geezer]

If/when Geezer comes up with some alternator windings which enable 40 amps or so, I'd be all ears.

My next step in that direction is to find a damaged alternator case to modify. Anybody have a cracked or otherwise damaged alternator cover that still has the part that bolts to the engine in OK condition?

Tony

[Larrym]

Less than 100% Functional??

Maybe another more useful way of viewing it would be to say that if before the wire was "broken" it could safely handle 100 watts of power. (Don't anybody even think about "peak" or "continuous" for the moment..)

Now that it's been "repaired" then it can only be rated to safely carry 95 watts?

Nawh...that don't help at all, does it??

[Larrym]

Fun With Splices/Connections!!

Clint,

I got it! (I think...)

Let's say you had to fill the kiddy pool in the back yard with a garden hose. You drag out the hose and take all the knots/kinks out. Then cause you're all 'bout the science of it all, you crank the valve wide open and start the stopwatch.

Kiddy pool filled in 20 minutes and ready for the summer fun. (Yeah!!!)



After the end of the day you dump out the pool.

(The dog was eyeing it suspiciously all day and you know what he likes to do in water.)


Next day the sun is out again so you go to fill the kiddy pool for another fun filled afternoon. But wait!! That dog wasn't as stupid as you thought cause he gnawed through the garden hose!! (Rover??! C'mere Boy!! But he's a no-show.)

You go to the local hardware store and get one of these:



(let's say that the repair kit says that it only results in a 5% efficiency loss.)

So ya crank the valve wide open again and start the stopwatch once more.

At the 20 minute mark the kiddy pool will only be 95% full. That little repair no matter how small or where it is in the hose will always result in a 5% loss.

If you don't catch that dog today, he'll likely gnaw through the hose again. Then you'll have to put another repair in the hose. That'll be another 5% loss for a total of 10%. (Same thing applies to wires.)



Only way to get the same amount of water in the pool in the same amount of time is to crank up the pressure (Voltage.) But ya can't do that cause you were already at the max pressure/flow with the valve wide open.

Don't be too mad at the dog though. Those extra couple of minutes are enough to drink another beer. Besides, the kids"ll ruin the pool eventually and Rover will get to have his way with it in the end.

[crazy steve]

...Good charging systems are rated for continuous output and are assembled to work at their rated loads. They will work indefinitely at their rated output. Unfortunately, the XS doesn't work that way. Like an Asian stereo amplifier it's overrated and lists its peak output instead of its continuous output.

It might, on a good day, put out 18 to 22 Amps but it's meant to taper off quickly as the battery charges back up to capacity. The bike itself doesn't normally require anywhere near 20 Amps and if you try to run it at its rated output the stator and the wires and connectors will eventually cook. It's not an instantaneous "What the heck was that?!" kind of flash and burn it's a slow cook, like a good tri-tip, ribs and a pulled pork roast. It may take while but the insulation on the wires hardens and glazes so they don't flex; the insulating varnish bakes off in the stator; connectors oxidize and the regulator/rectifier runs hot. Heat kills solid-state components and that's just the alternator/regulator/rectifier part of the charging system.

To save Yen, the main harness wires used in the XS are slightly less than sufficient to handle the normal current required to run the bike. They're not large enough to sustain full-load amps for more than a short period of time.

I'll add a few comments. Scott is dead right about the XS charging system 'rating', my manual lists it as 20 amps peak, so expecting it to deliver that on a continuous basis is just asking for trouble. As a general rule, you should 'derate' from the peak rating by at least 10%, and in the electrical industry a 20% derate is required. There, it's done by limiting the allowable load connected to the circuit; a '20 amp' circuit can have only 16 amps of load connected. This gives you a 'cushion' to take care of any losses in connections, voltage variations, etc.

And the wire amp tables Scott shows need to be understood. There's two things going on here; first, the amp ratings shown mean that the wire is rated for that much if you don't want to exceed the temp shown in that column. So to get 20 amps continuously out of a 1.5 wire, it can heat up to nearly 200 degrees. The insulation on these harnesses is not rated for those kinds of temps. The second thing is this chart (which is not a 'legal' NEC table by the way) is giving values for AC circuits. Pure DC circuits produce considerably more heat, so you should apply a derate factor of at least 1/3, preferably 1/2 to these numbers to safely stay within the temp ranges. If you ever see a switch that's dual-rated (AC/DC), you'll find the DC amp rating is almost always much lower.

So Scotts' 'slightly less than sufficient' remark is actually giving them the benefit of the doubt...

'78E original owner

[crazy steve]

Uh...yup. I know that's a jagged little pill to swallow. That's "zactly" what happens when the wire is handling the "max" amount rated for the wire size. Only 95% gets through.

Larry, what'r you smokin'? You can only carry the 'water' analogy so far...

OK, lets assume that your '95%' figure for a connection is correct (and I'm not saying it is or isn't).

So let's make another assumption; let's say that a given size of wire has a resistance of 1 ohm per foot (I'm not going to use 'real' numbers as there won't be room for all the zeros). Using a 12 vdc source, a 1 amp load, and 100 ft of wire, this circuit will use 1.12 amps total (not accounting for voltage drop which for this has no bearing). Now, make a soldered connection. Let's also assume that this connection is 1" long.

A 1" piece of this wire will have a resistance of 1 divided by 12, or .08333 ohms. Now, you're claiming a '5%' loss through this, so the resistance has increased. What the hell, let's say it doubled, it's a 50% loss. So now this 1" piece has a resistance of .16666 ohms. Take the original 100 ohm total for the wire, subtract the 'old' 1" value, then add the new one. Your new wire resistance total is now 100.0833 ohms. Plug this into your circuit, and your new total amps is now 1.1199 amps, a loss of .0001 amps. As a percentage, this amounts to only a .0001119% loss, or slightly more than one ten-thousandths.

Who did you say you needed to call for a refund?

'78E original owner

[XS1100 Newbie]

Did anyone ever answer the original question? Although i think he got his answer in many ways. For me, i think maybe a couple of small LED lights for markers, to help be seen is about all i want to chance. Makes you wish the bike had started of 6 volt, and we all had changed it to 12. We wouldn't have to worry much about wire size. But i suspect they would have needed heavier shocks to carry 6 volt wiring harness, oh, and a headlight bucket the size of a feeding trough.

[Yahman]

My next step in that direction is to find a damaged alternator case to modify. Anybody have a cracked or otherwise damaged alternator cover that still has the part that bolts to the engine in OK condition?

Tony

Tony,

I'm pretty sure that I have one around here somewhere, it's yours if you want it.

Larry

[Larrym]

Pennies Saved?

XS1100 Newbie,

I think you're right to redirect things towards providing Jurgen with something usable.

I'd suggest that along with finding the most "efficient/low amperage" lights that he and anyone adding "accessories" try to reduce the power used by everything else first. It's a "Watt saved is a Watt Earned" scenario. I would replace as many lights as possible with LED versions. The aftermarket carries direct replacements that fit into the original sockets. Kinda "pricey" but then what other options other than modifying every lamp fixture are there??

Psycoreefer did a bang up job of integrating LEDs on his ride so if he hasn't got an eye on finding a use for those "saved Watts" I'd be surprised. He did an excellent post recently and a search would lead to it and the detailed pictures he provided. (Excellent eye candy to look at.)

Jurgen isn't re-inventing the wheel here. I know TC has "supplementary" forward lighting on Godzilla and He's not the kinda guy who does something like that without doing a very good write-up to accompany it. Might include actual make/model/part #'s also. (Hint-Hint...)

I'm still trying to figure out how Jurgen gets those two dots above the "U" in his name. Don't tell me how he does it, though. I gotta have something to do on a rainy day.

[jurgenkoppen]

And now an easy question....

Although that is what I thought my previous one was......
So I have learned, courtesy of all you merry men, that, if I really must run accessories like 9amps worth of extra lighting, I ought to run them through a relay switch. I was so happy to comply, in the face of so much good will.
But then, to be perfectly honest, as is my habit, it occured to me that I do not have the slightest clue why this would improve, or somehow make my dicey setup less risky. Am I not just adding another minute load, namely the lil electromagnet to keep the switch closed? And what does a relay accomplish anyway, other than avoiding a big spark when the contacts of a high amperage circuit hit each other??? I am missing a bit of info here, another gap in my admittedly patchy understanding of electricity. And that after 15 years of living in the backwoods with my own solar and micro hydro power supply..... http://www.cedar-strip.com
A tip for Larry on the little dots marking an "Umlaut": German alphabet can be accessed if one chooses the keyboard settings designed for the Kraut eating public....

[psycoreefer]

A relay will not help the health of your charging system, it will however elminate that extra 10 amps of draw from the already over taxed wire that runs from the battery to ignition switch and then to the fuse box. If you don't do this you run the risk of overloading the iginition switch and the wire running to it.

The way to hook it up would be wire from battery - through fuse - to relay.
Wire from relay to lights.
Wire from exisiting circuit (headlights maybe) through switch to relay.
Wire from relay to ground.

What posts on your relay these wires hook to depend on the relay, most have a little diagram on them to help you figure it out.

Now when you flip your switch your pulling a few mA extra through the headlight circuit to close the relay, and the 10amps the lights are using is going through appropriate sized wire from the battery to your lights, instead of through the undersized wire in the stock harness.


Outstanding website by the way - much respect for you strip builders. I'm currently building a cirrus S&G from one ocean kayaks, not the kit, I've done all the work. I only hope to some day be able to devote the time, space, and attention to detail to build a stripper....