New foglights-did they fry my regulator?

[Larrym]

Slings-Arrows-Outrageous Misfortunes

crazysteve,

Eh tu, Stevimus??

Larry, what'r you smokin'?

Long time ago in school I went to a weekend "party". On Monday I stood in front of my locker and couldn't remember the combination I'd been using for the last 3 semesters. It was there in my head but I couldn't bring it to the surface. I learned from that experience and never ever touched that stuff again.

OK, lets assume that your '95%' figure for a connection is correct

That'd be a good place to start. Though technically it's not mine. I'm just using something already out there stated by "Western Union" which is also used as a "standard". Other standards are out there to be used as guidelines in designing/troubleshooting electrical stuff but this one happens to be usable/transferable (Plug-in-able???) to our bikes. When WU (in this case...) says the soldered connection is 95% efficient they say what they mean and mean what they say. I'm just standing on the shoulders of giants who have already done all the "supporting evaluations/mathematical acrobatics".

I'm touched..even moved by the numbers you provide. I really like the way you take it all down to 7 decimal places without resorting to "scientific/exponential" notation. (Real men don't say 1.119 times 10 to the negative 4 percent loss. Just don't have the same "Kick" for me...)

Problem I have isn't with the math, but the direction it is pointing. (Missed the bulls-eye.) Reason for that is although you state:

OK, lets assume that your '95%' figure for a connection is correct

You proceed along the lines of having a pre-formed conclusion(Hypothesis) and then move along to make the data fit your conclusion. (Tsk..Tsk...finger wag.) IIRC the idea is to take the data/evidence and let that form the conclusion. Here you're stating that the 95% is correct but fingering out the math that sez the opposite is true. Very well done but: Fail.

I put it in the same category as those astronomers who looked at the sky during Copernicus's day and found very elaborate (even convoluted) equations/methods of interpreting what they saw in the skies to support their notion that the Earth was stationary. All else rotated around us. Quite detailed, very rational/reasonable, and yet not quite in line with the way things are arranged physically in the solar system.

The math does support the 95% loss in power. Keep at it and try using the different variations of E=I times R plugged into the P= I times E formula. I wouldn't dare rob you or anyone with the right background of the moment of discovery where you find it out for yourself.

You can only carry the 'water' analogy so far..

.

I agree with that. Seems like "theories/suppositions that carry water" worked well for Mr. Ohms and Mr. Kirchhoff too. They used the water flow/pressure/resistance/force analogy to understand what electrons do enough to come up with equations and rules for their behaviors. Funny thing is that Ohms saw all this and dutifully shared what he found out with his "peeps." They reacted with "WTF" and "ya been hittin' the Ouzo too hard" as well. Ohms died penniless, ridiculed, disgraced, and no one supported his notions about "resistance" whatsoever.

Then when folks really needed to explain what was going on with those pesky electrons they looked again at Ohm's model/equations. This time they proceeded as if he really was correct instead of propping up a mathematical house of cards designed to show they were right and he was wrong.

The rest is history.

Too bad I'm not a real guru.

Then I could get all cryptic and respond with something like:

"It's not that the 95% is wrong. It's that you see it as wrong because your cup is too full to accept it as being right."

[jurgenkoppen]

Hey Psycho,reefer that is

thanks for clarification on the relay.
I checked out you pics and right off the top I like the first picture on your web shot album for a good idea: that might be just something for me to try, as my first gear on my 79 Special in 80 frame just started to do the dreaded jump routine. I did the filing job once before on my 79 STD, and it worked great. However, then I had turned the whole bike upside down to get at the cogs. That was a lot of set-up work, and by standing the bike up as you show, maybe I can leave my fluids in the middle and rear end drive....and do not have to take off tank, windshield, instruments etc etc.
About devoting time to a stripper: That is time well spend in my view, and a solid 300 hr justification for drinking beer, staring at elegant curves, while appearing to the rest of the unsuspecting public to be quite productive. I am getting away with it for years now.

[psycoreefer]

Hey Psycho,reefer that is

thanks for clarification on the relay.
I checked out you pics and right off the top I like the first picture on your web shot album for a good idea: that might be just something for me to try, as my first gear on my 79 Special in 80 frame just started to do the dreaded jump routine. I did the filing job once before on my 79 STD, and it worked great. However, then I had turned the whole bike upside down to get at the cogs. That was a lot of set-up work, and by standing the bike up as you show, maybe I can leave my fluids in the middle and rear end drive....and do not have to take off tank, windshield, instruments etc etc.
About devoting time to a stripper: That is time well spend in my view, and a solid 300 hr justification for drinking beer, staring at elegant curves, while appearing to the rest of the unsuspecting public to be quite productive. I am getting away with it for years now.

Only tip I have after having done it that way is, buy nice straps, and be careful lowering it back down, I had one strap "slip" as I was lowering the bike and it nearly crashed down all the way to the floor. I agree that its easier then removing all the "top" stuff and flipping the bike.

Anything that can combine those key words is a plus in my book.

[TopCatGr58]

Jurgen isn't re-inventing the wheel here. I know TC has "supplementary" forward lighting on Godzilla and He's not the kinda guy who does something like that without doing a very good write-up to accompany it. Might include actual make/model/part #'s also. (Hint-Hint...)

Hey Larry,

Well, those AUX lights and wiring were added well before my appointment to Admin as well as before my photodocumentation processes had been fully developed! (pun intended)

I also first thought about a RELAY, but then opted for just a HEAVY DUTY switch that could handle the power/amperage directly! I did utilize a separate circuit/wire...JURGEN.... with a Tap from the AUX fuse terminals/screws...they are rated at 10 amps max!!! Ran it up to my handlebar switch, and then down to the lights and then to FRAME ground. Granted, the switch is HOT=Live...not temperature hot all the time, and I have occasionally forgotten that I had bumped it ON when I've stopped for refueling and breaks during trips, but usually someone points it out to me well before the battery is depleted!!

I DID utilize a RELAY for the extra loud horns that I installed, again a direct power tap from the AUX terminal screws to the RELAY then to the horns. I used the OEM horn wires on the LOW power switching side of the RELAY so that I could use the OEM button switch, but have full battery power to drive the horns! I just have to try to remember NOT to have the AUX lights running when I want to hit the horn...probably just blow a fuse!

I have also tried to follow what you've said about the 95% efficiency and 5% power loss of spliced/repaired wires, but as has been pointd out, that it's more relavent and a concern IF that wire is being used to it's full load carrying capacity. So...I would think that the HIGH POWER/AMP loaded wires such as the ALT wires, the main REG/RECT wires would be where this would be a concern, but for many/most of the other bike's wires, they are not being utilized to their max load capacity anyways, and so the wire easily handles the load WITHOUT any perceptible power loss since the 95% capacity is well above the required capacity/load that it usually handles.

It would be nice to have a short(pun not intended) list of the CRITICALLY stressed wires in the harness that could most benefit from replacing with larger gauge wire... ie. the aforementioned Stator and REG/RECT wires, perhaps also the main fuse line to the main ignition switch and such?? I believe it was Scott/3Phase that replaced the main power wires going to his GANG fuse array??

I think that would be a worthy tech tip topic.
T.C.

PS..Jurgen....have you replaced your OEM glass fuses and block with solid ATCO style fuses/block?? If not, that's another thing that would provide better power flow and reduced power losses over all of your circuits! I ran the AUX term circuit thru the Solid Fuse Block as well.

[b.walker5]

Ohms died penniless, ridiculed, disgraced, and no one supported his notions about "resistance" whatsoever.

Then when folks really needed to explain what was going on with those pesky electrons they looked again at Ohm's model/equations. This time they proceeded as if he really was correct instead of propping up a mathematical house of cards designed to show they were right and he was wrong.

So... Now OHMS was wrong !! WTF???? So your saying that one of the principle cornerstones of electrical knowledge is wrong. Please tell me your not serious

[clcorbin]

My last attempt at this. Sorry to the OP for once again posting something that is basically off topic to the original question.

Larry,

That 95%/5% rule you keep posting as developed by Western Union is a RULE OF THUMB that simply states 95% of the power should be delivered to the LOAD and that leaves 5% of the power to be absorbed by the wires/switches/connectors/rust/adhesives/bird poo/etc. It does NOT say that every item in there adds 5% additional loss like you have claimed on any number of posts. It simply says to make sure all the additional "Stuff" is efficient enough so that the total losses are ONLY 5%. Aka: A rule of thumb.

Look at your 10 awg wire required for the light on your sail boat mast. That thing is only drawing 1.2 amps, but you need very large wire to keep the losses down on a very long run to the mast, up the mast, down the mast, back to the battery. If you used 12 awg, you would be right at or over the 5% losses rule of thumb.

What everyone else has been trying to say is you are confusing this 5% losses rule of thumb with ANOTHER rule of thumb that says a good, soldered connection is 95% efficient. Then you try to add up those 5%'s up and call it a "bad thing".

The while problem is the reference. The Western Union 95% rule is referencing the WHOLE system. So, it IS saying make sure you don't have more than 5% losses in the system and that is referenced to the total power consumed by the load.

The 95% rule for a soldered connection (or even 50% or worse for a marginally crimped connection) is ONLY referencing the efficiency RELATIVE to the length of wire that was REPLACED by the connector. NOT the whole system! So even if you have several connectors that are only 50% efficient, the extra power lost is still a very small number relative to the power delivered to the load. In short, once you compare the 5% INCREASE in lose in that soldered connector to the whole system, it goes from a 5% increase in loss at that location to 0.0xxxx% TOTAL LOSS in the system.

That is the difference. That is the point that several of us have been TRYING to get across to you. I can't see how I could explain it any clearer and I am not willing to take the OP any further off topic.

If you still disagree, please create a new topic and we can join you in there and debate this until the cows come home. And we can use the full math and full circuit analysis as well. Who knows, maybe the OP will join us just to see if we ever get to the bottom of this!

[crazy steve]

...Long time ago in school I went to a weekend "party". On Monday I stood in front of my locker and couldn't remember the combination I'd been using for the last 3 semesters. It was there in my head but I couldn't bring it to the surface. I learned from that experience and never ever touched that stuff again.....

...You proceed along the lines of having a pre-formed conclusion(Hypothesis) and then move along to make the data fit your conclusion. (Tsk..Tsk...finger wag.) IIRC the idea is to take the data/evidence and let that form the conclusion. Here you're stating that the 95% is correct but fingering out the math that sez the opposite is true. Very well done but: Fail.

LOL! You're right, once was enough; it must have caused permanent damage...

'Pre-formed' conclusion? Hmmm, let's see; four year electrical apprenticeship, 30+ years in the industry, held both admistrator and 'unlimited' licenses (aka 'Master' in some states), and taught AC theory for a number of years. I'm not sure where you made the wrong turn, but my math is more than adequate for this purpose. So if what you claim were true, the planet would be denuded for firewood and we'd still be using oil lamps for lighting...

Or are you just jerking chains to see who comes out of the woodwork?

'78E original owner

[3Phase]

OT (OffTopic)

jurgenkoppen: Pardon me for borrowing your thread. I can see that you have a better understanding of your XS and how to keep it running with accessories that draw a lot of current. Tony (Geezer) will take care of you, don't worry about his regulator/rectifier. It's better than top quality and he stands behind his work one-hundred percent.


T.C., I'll do a better writeup on the horns and the harness mods with pictures when I get some time. This was experimental at the time I did it so I'll have to undo the harness to get the pictures.


There are two horn wires for the XS, a Brown positive supply wire to the horns and, on my '80G, a Pink wire that runs from the horns up to the horn button. It's just a funny-colored ground wire and when you press the horn button it completes the horn circuit.

The OEM supply to the horn(s) runs through the Signal fuse. That circuit's carrying a pretty full load with its 20 amp fuse so I ran the relay power and horn power off the 10 amp Aux terminal. I ran an extension wire back to the relay from the Pink horn button ground wire, then taped off the Brown OEM horn positive wires. The horns work with the stock horn button and the relay and horns pull their power from the 10 amp Aux terminal instead of the 20 amp Signal circuit.


For the main wire, if you don't do anything dumb like I did, it'll be okay. I was in the habit of running my AC inverter to keep my phone charged up while I was traveling. The charging system handled it for about a year and the battery stayed full up but it was too much to ask of the poor old bike.

I replaced the main wire from the battery terminal on the starter relay up to the ignition switch with 10 gauge wire. I ran 12 gauge from the ignition switch to the point in the wiring harness where all the Brown 14 gauge wires that run to the supply side of the fuse box are spliced together.

The 30 amp main fuse holder and everything else is crimped/soldered and wrapped or sleeved. It almost looks like it came that way from the factory.

Basically, to use the tired, old, plumbing-->electricity comparison: the wiring in the XS and, maybe the XJ, too, is wired as though the contractor ran 1/2" PVC pipe from the street to the house. Some accessories inside the house also use 1/2" lines and others use 3/8" or 1/4". The upshot is that when you open a faucet your wife screams from the shower!

With the 10 and 12 gauge replacement wires it's like having a 1 1/4" line from the street to the house, then 1" inside the house to feed all the 1/2", 3/8" and 1/4" lines to the accessories and there's no more screaming from the shower.


The wires from the alternator, the stator and possibly the field wires are about at max but they're okay. I may replace them with better wire and replace the connector itself with sealed terminals. I don't like the stock spring-loaded connectors used for charging current but it's a lot of piddly work for not much gain and they've held up rather well over the years so I have no real complaint.

I think Randy mentioned that the alternator and field coil itself is inside a 200 to 350 degree oven. The wires Steve mentioned that run from the alternator up to the connector behind the fuse box are physically strapped to the outside of that oven so although they do get some cooling air they're right at the amp/temperature limit and the connector doesn't fare well at all.


The Japanese non-NEC wiring spec (the best I could find at the time without having to translate from Japanese) relates to the quality of insulation and how many amps it will safely handle at a given temperature before the insulation begins to break down. Amps are amps, AC or DC, but the table doesn't state if the specs are for conductors in free air or in a conduit/harness.

For the 1.5 mm^2 wire:
15 amps for cheap plastic insulation
17 amps for good plastic insulation
20 amps for high-temp plastic insulation


Regards,

Scott

[XS1100 Newbie]

Wish we could get electric motor lead wire, with different colors, and stripes. Great wire, and probably three times the amount of strands per size. All with great insulation.

[Larrym]

Indirectly linked to OP but still WW??

So... Now OHMS was wrong !! WTF???? So your saying that one of the principle cornerstones of electrical knowledge is wrong. Please tell me your not serious

Serious? Yeah. But misunderstood on this one.

Ohm's was right. That is his "understanding" of how things worked was verifiable/repeatable and usable. Sadly though, rather than look at his work along with "shifting" their current understanding, his peers chose the path of least resistance . That path was to scoff, ridicule, and even attack his reputation/standing in the "academic circles where only the learned were permitted."

These attacks were successful. That is even though his model was well founded and stood up to the closest scrutiny, the disbelievers were successful in discrediting him and through association his theories and laws. After all, he was a relative nobody in the pecking order. Many others with longstanding membership in the academic world with far more impressive credentials, titles, and honorifics following their names joined together to present a unified front which poor Mr. Ohms was apparently unable to overcome despite his best efforts.

That's just the way things worked in those days. The ordinary guy hadn't a snowball's chance in heck when going up against the "Properly powdered, perfumed, and be-ribboned" peacocks with all their posturing and gesturing.

The peers used the tried-n-true method of "outnumbering" Mr. Ohm. As if the fact that because such high numbers of them chose not to accept him/his work, they were right and therefore he must necessarily be wrong. It worked well enough at the time Mr. Ohms was alive.

That type of flawed logical support for stuff where it gets believed/disbelieved only when everyone supports it doesn't fly now-a-days, right? I mean we know that historically, until recently that if one were to ask anyone what the shape of the world was, the reply would universally have been, "Flat". Even though 100% of the world's population believed that to be true, it didn't change the real world's curved arc in the slightest bit.

No, Mr. Ohms was not wrong. However, many of his peers joined together and promoted the belief that he was wrong. We've evolved past that type of mob-o-cratic method of pseudo-science.

It's good to look back occasionally in order to fully appreciate our times.

[b.walker5]

Okay, great. Pleased we cleared that one up, but even a history lesson doesnt explain the flawed reasoning behind your 5% power loss theory. If Ohms was right, which we all know he was, and if, as you say, you know and understand his laws then perhaps you may need to dig deeper into electrical thoery to truly understand where us electrical tradesmen and others are coming from. Tell you one thing though, I'll hang my hat on my extensive trade training and 30+ years of real world experience on this one.

[skids]

I dunno. I guess at heart I'm such a Luddite. I could live without Tesla's wonders.

My bike would be diesel and my helmet would look like this:

Wow! Nice carbide lamp and miner's cap!!!