The Bagger Project

[kboehringer]

I assume you were able to do it without removing the engine?

Mike,
YES! It can absolutely be done with relative ease WITHOUT removing the engine. I had to enlist the help of SWMBO to help guide the cam chain and hold it up through the passage while I set the head on (the frame makes that a little bit of a bugger but not too bad). Other than that, no other help needed and no other significant issues.

I also had some second thoughts about not changing the rings when I pulled the head and my bike has probably 20k more miles than your Bagger. You could add 100 more items to your list of "SHOULD BE DONE WHILE I'M IN THERE" but where do you stop? Heck the engine is half apart...might as well change; the crank bearings, clutch plates, springs, transmission bearings, oil pump, etc. etc.

Personally, I had to draw the line at the head as head gasket was toast. The head was sitting on a work bench & I had the valve seals in the gasket kit and lapping compound in my tool box. Putting it back on without doing those things would have been silly.

IMPO - If your bike didn't have such nice compression and it also had 75K+ on the ticker that'd make great sense to look at the pistons, rings, etc.

KURT

[CaptonZap]

Huuuum, ..................... a vacuum hose is a good start, but you need to stick it on the blow side of an industrial vacuum, and attach it to the intake or exhaust port. The exhaust is probably the easiest, since you can take either 2 or 3 down pipe of the OEM system and plug it into which ever hole you are working on, and tape the hose to the open end. If you don't have an OEM down pipe, you need to get someone to hold the hose over the hole while you do the deed.
Rotate the engine until the appropriate valve is open, the other is closed, turn on the blower, and do your grinding or tapping. Wear some goggles, as it will spit chips at you. Do not use grease or anything that the chips will stick to.

CZ

[Radioguylogs]

I'm listening.

So this would look like:
(1) Remove the cams and shim+buckets
(2) Split the cam chain- it probably doesn't have a master link
(3) Take off the head, trying not to disturb the base gasket.

I'm not working today, so I go to the garage and look at how much material needs to be removed, and I hesitate before I do anything.

It's clear that the machining operation during manufacturing didn't drill-bore the hole fully. Then the tap stopped when it hit that hunk of metal. You can see the threads are somewhat distorted in the four zones where the cutting surfaces of the tap happened to be when it jammed.

I also realize I might not have much to lose if I cut the threads and try to clean out the chips by vacuum. If I don't feel good about it, then I have to pull the head- nothing lost over puling the head to start. But we know the risk is the un-found shrapnel.

This is hard decision for me. Maybe I'll work on something else today.
I was going to take advantage of my day off to drive into Ann Arbor where the shop mechanic is wiling to trade valve shims. But if I'm lapping valves in the future, this is wasted effort.

Guess I should find something else to do until I decide...

[MaximPhil]

Just before I went asleep I realized it was silly to think a magnet would help me keep aluminum shavings out of my cylinder....NEVERMIND that idea.

ha saved a couple of posts
Phil

[MaximPhil]

Hi Mike,
While you are debating with your self: Mine had a stripped plug hole when I bought it. I could say I decided to pull the head but in reality I was just the gopher picking up beer and watching my, new to me, machine be ripped apart The head can be removed and installed with the engine in the bike. do not disturb the pots & pistons. The head was stripped and cleaned and the damaged thread repaired by a machine shop. Valves lapped and new seals installed for a couple of beers and a chicken dinner if I recall correctly.
I was instructed to buy a gasket set and new cam chain at the beginning of the project and to bring beer. We used most of the gasket set and drank a lot of beer but in the end had a running XS. That was 50,000 Km ago and still runs strong. The carbs took 2 more years to get sorted out ( more beer) and the electrical is acting up
Anyway i just wanted to say. Removing the head might be a good idea
Phil

[kboehringer]

Steps 1-2-3 - NOT SO FAST!!!!

So this would look like:
(1) Remove the cams and shim+buckets

YES

(2) Split the cam chain- it probably doesn't have a master link

NO NO NO - There is NO REASON to break the chain. Once the sprockets are set off their raised area and the center chain support thing is out the cams can be slid right out under the chain. I used the coat hanger to the frame above the head to hold the chain while I pulled out the cams. When I pulled the head the chain was in the way so I just grabbed stuck a piece of wood under the head and THOUGH the chain so it wouldn't fall all the way to the crank. Once the head is off the coat hanger held the chain up while I was working on the head

(3) Take off the head, trying not to disturb the base gasket.

That should not be any problem. It's been there for 30k+ it ain't moving without a whack or two (or three) from your rubber hammer!

I am sure you have a Clymer Manual? Personally, I followed the manual basically to the letter as it sat next to me during the entire process!

Very Sincerely,
KURT

P.S. Go to dollar tree and get a couple of those cheapo ice trays. Work great for putting the shim buckets and cam holders in to make sure they go back exactly where they were. (the cam holders are actually numbered).

P.S. #2 If you don't have a valve spring compressor? One can be made for less than $10 with a Harbor Freight C-Clamp and an old deep well socket. Need instructions?

[Radioguylogs]

Success

All right- after reading all the helpful posts, any apprehension about the pulling the head subsided. I did it before on one of my triples. (And Kurt, I didn't know it at the time, but the cylinders got disturbed, the base gasket leaked after I put it back together. I had to pull the head AGAIN....and you have to break the cam chain to do it.)

So this afternoon, I stood there with the tap in my hand, looking into hole, and decided I had little to lose by seeing how it would go if I ran the tap through before pulling the head.

I saw the intake valve is in the way when it is open. I decided to close both valves after I saw that. That also put the piston near the top and act as collecting spot for debris.

I ran the tap through and it went through way more easily than I imagined. Some of the chips came back out with the tap. I looked inside and saw about 10 small chips, maybe 1/3 mm size, resting on top of the piston. I used a detailing attachment on my shop vac to gather the chips. I ran the tap through two more times and vacuumed the chips again. Then I put a small flexible hose on the vacuum and vacuumed all around the piston to be sure no chips escaped. There was not much debris and it vacuumed easily, so I felt good about the operation.

The #2 plug had witness marks on the electrode from hitting the trouble spot hole before. So, to confirm the fix, I took the #1 plug, which has a completely black layer of soot all over it, and installed it. The threads seem a hair loose, but it went in fine, all the way to the bottom, and it had no witness marks when I removed it. I tightened it as much as necessary, although I didn't try any unnecessary gorilla torque, and it held just fine.

Next I put the long extension back onto my compression gage and measured 134 PSI.

So I went ahead and checked all the cylinder side-by-side now that the carbs are off. I measured 130 / 133 / 126 / 134 cold. Yeah!

So, I raced to my favorite shop to trade valve shims, and found the store had been sold to big box bubble-pack owner, and they got rid all of the old inventory; adding a bunch of apparel and new ATVs to the floor instead of things that matter to me.

So....I will probably order a shim kit online, since I need 6 pieces.

The next episode

Also I'll start rounding up carb parts. Since they looked pretty reasonable inside, I'll probably just replace the needle valves and seat, and the butterfly shaft seals.

I know many would say, "why mess with the BSS seals"? The leaking gas seems to have come out from all the shafts and the area around the shafts was so cruddy, I am sure there will be crud all over the BSS. I have done the BSS on my other 3 bikes. Some looked horrible, some looked no-so-bad, but all the bikes idle nicely now

[Radioguylogs]

Valve Shimming Zen

Thought I'd check in with an update.

While I was waiting for the valve shims last week, I spent three evenings polishing the valve cover that will be hardly visible under the fairing.....but I'll know it looks shiny.

The valve shims came and I installed them. Three of them still measure tight. I was wondering how this can happen, and I realized that the biggest reason is that the steps between my English feeler gage sizes are about 1/2 the shim size increments. In other words, the measurement tolerance could be about 1/4 shim size, or even more. If you get an unfavorable tolerance stack between the before and after measurements, then the error might be 1/2 shim size or more. The shim size increments are about the same as the spec range. So, if the measurement tolerances are not in your favor, then you might measure the new shim out-of-spec.

I wondered what increments metric feeler gauges have. I looked for a set today and didn't find one yet.

Meanwhile, I ordered two more shims so I could play around and get the best possible measurements before I go on the next job.

[HalfCentury]

NAPA auto parts sells a metric feeler gauge. My local store did not have one in stock. I had my local store order it and I picked it up.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...274_0293962641

The gauges in mm are:

0.04 0.05 0.06 0.07 0.08 0.09 0.10 0.15 0.20 0.25 0.30 0.035 0.40 0.045 0.050 ......... up to 1.00

Thought I'd check in with an update.

While I was waiting for the valve shims last week, I spent three evenings polishing the valve cover that will be hardly visible under the fairing.....but I'll know it looks shiny.

The valve shims came and I installed them. Three of them still measure tight. I was wondering how this can happen, and I realized that the biggest reason is that the steps between my English feeler gage sizes are about 1/2 the shim size increments. In other words, the measurement tolerance could be about 1/4 shim size, or even more. If you get an unfavorable tolerance stack between the before and after measurements, then the error might be 1/2 shim size or more. The shim size increments are about the same as the spec range. So, if the measurement tolerances are not in your favor, then you might measure the new shim out-of-spec.

I wondered what increments metric feeler gauges have. I looked for a set today and didn't find one yet.

Meanwhile, I ordered two more shims so I could play around and get the best possible measurements before I go on the next job.

[Radioguylogs]

So metric is better

Thanks Half Century- it's helpful to know I could get twice the resolution with a metric gauge-if you stack them to get the size you need.

[Radioguylogs]

Putzing along

While waiting for the new valve shims to arrive.....

Pulled the starter and the aluminum bearing cover adjacent to it.

Dis-assembled and cleaned the starter. This bike has twice as many miles as my others, but less wear inside the starter than any of them. The brushes are almost full size. Good to know the bike was never in a poorly maintained state that required excessive cranking.

Only 'bad' thing was the bearing in the aluminum end cap was dry.

So, I polished the aluminum on the starter and the bearing cover. Ordered new O-rings for both; lubed and reassembled the starter

Weather in Detroit is unusually warm. We are expecting upper 50's tomorrow and 63 on Sunday. I hope to try out the windscreen on the SF this weekend.

[mro]

valve cover

Nice SG Radioguylogs

.....but I'll know it looks shiny.

Well... I also polish the fins on the oil filter covers.

Pretty much polish just about everything that doesn't get some paint.



mro

[Radioguylogs]

Getting ready to take off the enginer covers.

mro, I was proud I cleaned the gunk out of the oil filter fins, but now I know there is someone much more passionate.

Today I pulled the exhaust off and spent hours with paint thinner, Q tips, pipe cleaners, paper towels, paint brush, and a toothbrush degunking the nooks and crannies all around the engine as best I could.

I was disappointed find quite a bit of rust on the exhaust headers. They would look better polished, but the rust specks are big enough they will be noticeable. I'll ponder for a (short) while if I am going to clean up this exhaust and use it for now, or go straight to a really nice set I have squirreled away. Don't see as much of the pipes with the full fairing, bit it seems like they will still be noticeable.

More later....

[kboehringer]

........the rust specks are big enough they will be noticeable........

Mike,
Must be nice to worry about "Rust Specks" on your headers. Every set of pipes I have look like nearly total poop.

Although most of the chrome parts on my XS11's are very far from pristine, there are a few pieces that had only very minor rust (Engine Guards, Handle Bars, Fenders, Carb Caps).

Turtle Wax "Chrome Polish & Rust Remover" {a small 12oz. green bottle $4 (+/-)}, available at all the retail car parts places, did a great job of making them look perfect. Worth a try for your "Rust Specks"

ADDITIONAL CLEANING & POLISHING:
With 36k on the ticker (?), there is no doubt a bunch of goop in the oil pan that will not be removed with an "Oil Change". I pulled the oil pan off each of my XS11's and found large quantities of crud in each of them. The CRUD will not get washed or drained out with a regular oil change as the plug is bit above the absolute bottom edge of the pan.

While off for internal cleaning, I polished the casting flash off the exterior with a polishing scotch brite pad and then buff the heck out of them with Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish. Very few will ever see it.... but I know it's there!

Sincerely,
KURT

[Radioguylogs]

I think the same

Kurt:

Hey- I use the Turtle Wax chrome polish as well. I also have Simeniz, but I don't use it as often.

I like Mother's the best for aluminum...I have Blue Coral, but it don't come close to Mother's.

Odd that you mention the oil pan. That is next for me. I wanted to do it Saturday night, but it was getting late, and it was time to wind down. I'll provide a gunk report in the next few days. Sometimes one finds something unexpected.

Now that I know your oil pan is polished, I can deflect any teasing about getting my bike dirty next time!

Today I was helping Louann in the basement and had a few extra minutes. I decided it would a good idea to break free the carb butterfly screws before I split the carbs- I knew it would be much easier to hold them while they are assembled. I got 7 seven screws out with little trouble, but couldn't turn one of them without bugering the screw head. I was able to get it with an Easy-out (Whew).

That's all for today- I try to hang out with Louann on Sunday.