1980 XS11 Special - Ugly Duckling Rebuild

[kboehringer]

A struggle today after the pan clean out......

That was a good call, Kurt!

Thanks 3Phase! I don't know if this is a Planned Maintenance item but it sure should be. The design of the drain plug will not allow a large quantity of goo to drain. I changed the oil in this thing the day I was able to first get it started so it's had two oil changes in probably less than ten miles of driving. All the "goo" should now be gone from her insides.....

I struggled a little bit getting the bike right today........

Yesterday, it ran like a real monster. But, I thought it was a little lean.



This morning, I finished the oil pan, installed the loaner 4 to 1. I bumped the mixture up a bit. synchronized the carbs (barely off 1 to 2). Ran like crap.

Pulled the plugs, looked dark, figured I went too far. Noticed one plug cap had electric tape on it I hadn't noticed before..... Took it off, cap fell apart. I had a couple new caps (XJ Spares) installed them and the best two originals..... Ran like crap.

--Took the wife to lunch on the Maxim..... UGH!--

Adjusted the carbs back to yesterday's settings. Ran great up the street, around the corner, down the next block DIED! Would barely idle, not run, pushed it home about 1/4 mile. That MOTHER is darn heavy!!!! That's some serious "unsprung wheel weight"!

Sat there scratching my head..... looking, studying, thinking... What's that? Looks like the fuel lines are pinched... BOTH of THEM...... Remove seat again, remove tank again. Adjusted the hoses a little, re-installed... Runs like a scolded dog again. Drove about 5 miles, no issues.

I must have pinched the lines when I was making other adjustments at the beginning of the day.

-- Ordered new tank badges, head lamp bulb, etc. from Partzilla. --

What a day! I need some R & R on the couch!

Sincerely,

[3Phase]

I think what will amaze you the most as you gain skill and confidence is exactly how how fast and how far you can jump to reach a wrong conclusion.

My bike wasn't running right and the tach and charging were looking kind of ragged. Why, in almost no time at all I had the seat and the tank off to check the Regulator and the sidecover was pulled and the fuse block almost all the way out before I noticed the positive battery terminal was loose.

Bike looks good! Enjoy yourself and be careful with that centerstand, some guy welded a bolt to it to keep it from hitting the frame and it might hit the ground when you make a left turn.

.

[jetmechmarty]

Does the center stand actually function with that exhaust?

[kboehringer]

Center Stand Works...Sort of....

Does the center stand actually function with that exhaust?

Marty,
Yes. But I think mostly because of my personal redneck stand stopper? It is my plan to trim that self-added post to a point where it BARELY clears the swing arm. Once that is done it may contact the exhaust.

COMPRESSION ISSUES:
Seems the compression variation is still very significant. It's far far out of spec. I wanted to get a little run time in before I re-checked the valve clearance but I think it is very close based upon assembly checks. I don't believe my compression issue has anything to do with the head. I felt a little more side-to-side movement in the stock pistons within the jugs when I had the head off but was hopeful the vast majority of my problem(s) was head related. Finger crossing didn't work too well this time.....

I'm going to purchase a set a of used jugs, new Wiseco pistons and rings, and have the local machine shop bore the cylinders to match. I have a good relationship with a local Machine Shop that has performed the machine work on several motors for me and my hot rod friends. They quoted me $200(+/-) and less than 2 weeks to bore the jugs. I need to get this done quickly so I'm ready for XSSE. I believe I can pull the whole thing apart and get it back to running in a single day.

If I keep my current cylinders in-place I can continue to work on the bike and progress with the other many many issues needing to be addressed until the replacement set is ready for installation. That's worth the $50 for the replacement set of jugs.

Honestly, it's hard to believe the compression is as bad as the gauge indicates because it truly does run like a scolded dog (when I don't pinch the fuel lines off). I've tested it several times and it's always basically the same. I can only assume that oil in the lower cylinders (during running) is providing some sort of compression boost/seal not seen during a normal dead engine compression test.

I have no idea how this thing runs so well with a 60# difference top to bottom? I can't imagine how it will run with all cylinders running within the specified range.

Respectfully,

[bikerphil]

You probably just need to run the engine more, the rings may still be partially stuck. When they free up with some use, your compression numbers should be better/more even. Just my 2¢.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Kurt,

I second what Phil said. Many on here have found barn finds, had moderately low comp levels, but engines had sat for years, slight rust, stuck rings. Initial comp tests were low. They then put several hundred highway miles on the engines, this helps scrub the cylinders, and allowed the rings to reseat and reseal with the cylinders. Regrettably, the XS11's piston/cylinder clearance specs are bit larger than modern bikes/engines.....so that may be why they seemed a little loose in the cylinders vs. any actual ovalling wear.

Would recommend also a little dose of Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil to help loosen or unstick the rings, run the bike a few hundred miles and then retest the comps before deciding on a tear down.

Now, as for the replacement pistons...unless you've already purchased the WISECO ones....good luck getting a set...and hope you have deep pockets...they are over $500.00 a set IF THEY have any in stock! A much cheaper option will be the Japanese CAST imports on eBay for $150.00 for same type of set, pistons/rings/head gasket, wrist pins, keepers. Stock XS11 pistons were also CAST....a member ViperRon has installed them and they are working just great!

T.C.

[3Phase]

You probably just need to run the engine more, the rings may still be partially stuck. When they free up with some use, your compression numbers should be better/more even. Just my 2¢.

+2

Which cylinder(s) are low? Unless you saw some obvious scoring or wear when you had the head off, don't worry about the compression numbers yet. Go out for a quick 200 or 300 mile ride, then change the oil and filter to get rid of any kribblies left over from working on the engine and check he compression.

If it's not better, stick to riding to Wal Mart to buy tube socks and beef jerky until the Wiseco kit is ready. If it is better then go for short 500 or 1,000 mile weekend ride.

.

[kboehringer]

Cylinder #2 & #3 are lowest

Which cylinder(s) are low? Unless you saw some obvious scoring or wear when you had the head off, don't worry about the compression numbers yet.

XS Folks,
Thanks for the info. I hope you are all correct on the reasons for low compression. It's the #2 & #3 that are the lowest. The old head gasket was leaking oil in the area between them and I ASSUMED the bad head gasket had compromised the compression for both of those cylinders. Apparently not.

I'm not sure for how long but I am sure the bike sat for a while before I acquired it. It was also absolutely stored outside with unprotected air stacks so water and such would have had no problem getting inside the cylinders. I also have no idea of the actual mileage as the bike's speedo was replaced with a '79 model. The '79 speedo has something like 45-50k on it. I assume most of that was put on it while it was on this '80.

The condition of the cylinder walls were very nice. If I had seen any evidence of scratching, scoring, or any other obvious damage I would have pulled the jugs at that time and stopped trying to be frugal. I am glad to hear that the slight "slop" I felt in the clearance between piston and wall is probably normal.

WISECO: OUCH....
The Wisecos are in-stock in standard, and two over sizes. Unfortunately, when I re-looked at the web page last night I realized the $160 price I thought was for a "Set" was for ONE(1) piston. The full set w/rings is $650.00.

I'm no longer so anxious to make a replacement with those. My experience is with SBC and Pontiac car motors. It's not uncommon to find a full set of Cast Pistons(8) for $70. $650 for four is just plain crazy.


A Long Ride:
Last night I took the bike out again for a mile or two and it ran nicely. I'm trying to build confidence that it will start and run consistently. I pushed it a 1/4 mile the other day and I don't want to do that ever again. If I can get the confidence up I'll run it down to Warm Springs with the bride on the back (about 80 miles round trip). That way I'll have some company out in the hot Georgia heat while I wait for the tow truck!

I've never used Marvel Oil but I'll give it a try for the long ride and change the oil on return.

Respectfully,
Kurt

[3Phase]

Yes, Wiseco is expensive!

Have you re-torqued the head nuts yet? Make sure the engine is cold, then torque the nuts and check the compression. If that doesn't work, soak the cylinders for a few days like T.C. suggested with some Marvel Mystery Oil or transmission fluid.

After you add the oil, lightly thread the sparkplugs enough to keep 'stupidity' from occurring.

While it's soaking, pull the plugs so it won't hydro-lock and turn the engine over with the starter a few times, then add some more MMO or ATF and lightly thread the sparkplugs again to safe the engine. After a few days, pull the plugs and blow out any excess oil, then seat the sparkplugs.

Run the engine in the driveway until it quits blowing smoke and gets fully warmed up.

Let the engine cool down before you try to remove the spark plugs and check the compression or you can rip the aluminum threads right out of the head along with the plugs.

However the numbers turn out, change the oil before you ride anywhere!



.

[kboehringer]

Marvel Mystery Oil

Marvel Mystery Oil.

TC, 3Phase, et al,

I've never used Marvel Mystery Oil or any of these type products but I'm following your suggestions to the letter. I stopped in on AutoZone on the way home and got some.



I used a turkey baster to get a couple tablespoons into each cylinder. That should be plenty enough to loosen the rings if they are stuck and not completely contaminate the oil. Apparently, they want you to add this stuff to your oil or gas? I spun the motor a couple revolutions and it'll sit for the night+.

It makes some sense that the rings could be stuck as the cylinder heads and piston crowns had a good bit of carbon build-up on them before the head work. Additionally, since I've owned the bike it probably has less than 45 minutes of running time TOTAL. I doubt I've driven more than 10 miles (pushed it 1/4 mile). So, if the rings have been stuck I certainly haven't put much time on this motor that may have sat for a significant period of time.

Hopefully, it'll clear up the compression. Since the cylinders did look really good I may try a light hone and a set of STD. rings (about $40) if the compression does not come up to a reasonable level.

Tonight, I'll watch the MMO soak and work on some of the other little things that need to be addressed.

Thank you guys,
Sincerely,
Kurt

[3Phase]

Right, on, Kurt!

The reason you have to be careful with carbon cleaners isn't because they're bogus, it's because they work! You don't have to change the oil because it has a little MMO, ATF, or your-favorite-cleaner in it, try to imagine adding valve grinding compound to a sealed box with what amounts to a very angry Tasmanian Devil spun up inside of it.

Sure, some of the carbon that will get cleaned off the piston crowns and out of the ring pack will go out through the exhaust valves.

A lot of the carbon will get blown down the cylinder walls where 'stuff' will immediately strike the rotating assembly and get added to the huge cloud of clean oil mist that's supposed to be lubricating the inside of the engine.

.

[jetmechmarty]

NAPA and Carquest have a quality filter for this bike. Wix PN is 24933.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Kurt,

I didn't provide the more cautious technique like Scott/3Phase did, because we had a recent discussion about the use of MMO in the oil....I think it was BONZ that had said he had used it in many engines, his bike, etc, and had run it till the next oil change....really helps to clear out varnish and gum from engine parts. I had only meant to add a few ounces to the oil only, and run it. I knew you had had the head off and cleaned, and so I figured you might have already decarboned the piston crowns while you had it apart, so that's partly why I didn't suggest the immersion/soaking via the TOPEND route.

But that technique will get a more concentrated dose to the rings to help get things unstuck quicker if they are stuck. Because of the previous cleaning you had already done to the head, I don't think you have to worry too much about much carbon being released into the oil.

Now, your statement about set of Standard rings for $40.00? Where did you find that info. And I've seen that price also...but for only a set of rings for 1 piston!! And I don't know if standard rings are still available from Yamaha...we do know that the oversizes aren't available. Again, let's not put the cart before the horse.....find out what the compression levels end up at...and THEN if still horribly low..figure out how to freshen them up...but thinking about the bigbore kit as one way. Some folks have been able to get the 1st oversize rings and filed the end gaps to fit them into the standard bores...but again that isn't the best fit.

T.C.

[kboehringer]

MMO & Carbon

Hey Kurt,
I figured you might have already decarboned the piston crowns while you had it apart, so that's partly why I didn't suggest the immersion/soaking via the TOPEND route.

YES. I completely cleaned the: head, valves & stems, intake and exhaust runners, & piston crowns while it was apart. I also polished the intake and exhaust runners. There's no carbon above the crown in the chambers. I left the upper cylinder ridge alone as that was likely to cause more trouble than benefit.

Now, your statement about set of Standard rings for $40.00? Where did you find that info.

Evil-Bay......FULL SET $42.95+ shipping.

Again, let's not put the cart before the horse.....find out what the compression levels end up T.C.

Hopefully.... It'll work and rings won't be an issue to resolve before XSSE.

Thanks for the help TC

Kurt

[3Phase]

T.C., I bought a set of those $40 rings from eBay and they were 1st oversize.

I found that out right before I went to the rally last year and had to use the old rings.

.