Lithium battery?

[James England]

"weight savings is academic"

....says the guy shopping Marchesini wheels!

While there is a lot of weight to lose on an XS11, as the saying goes, the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time, and 7 lbs loss is a pretty big bite!

It's not a 7lb weight reduction, surely?? Are you saying that a lithium battery for an XS1100 is 7lbs lighter? I don't think an XS1100 lead/acid battery even weighs that, does it?? ?

Galespeed wheels are even lighter.... 50% weight reduction v OEM..... that's a lot of bites.....

[T99Ford]

I believe most of the lead acid batteries for the XS11 are in the neighborhood of 12 pounds IIRC. The Shorai replacement is close to 4.

On my VTR the stocker was 8 lbs and the Shorai was 1.2. It's a significant difference.

[James England]

I believe most of the lead acid batteries for the XS11 are in the neighborhood of 12 pounds

I'll look into that and get back with some data. I don't think an XS11 battery weighs almost a stone.... I could be wrong though, so I'll find out!

[T99Ford]

Here is a link to the Yuasa site on a standard lead-acid battery. It shows 11.2 pounds. I looked it up for an '80 SG, but they all seem to be pretty close. A lot heavier than one would think.

http://www.oemcycle.com/Item/product/900030503/_Vid31459802120

And here is the link to the Shorai application specific battery for the XS1100

http://www.shoraipower.com/s-386988-XS1100.aspx

Comes in at a tick over 4 lbs. I am sure you could get by with a smaller Shorai, as I did in the case of my 1000 cc twin. I spec'd it rather than use the application guide.

There are a lot of variations, but the idea is there, anyway. The LiFPO batteries are significantly lighter than their lead acid counterparts, but have different operating characteristics as well.

[clcorbin]

Thanks for the correction and very detailed update T99Ford!

[oldnortonrider]

Actually, Clcorbin is incorrect. The Shorai battery is Lithium Iron Phosphate--the same as the A123 cell, and is not a Lithium Ion battery as is commonly believed. It is not the same as a cell phone, RC car, etc. The cell structure in the Shorai is flat prismatic cell rather than rolled up as in the A123, so it looks different, but it is most certainly a LiFepo battery.

Here is the proof from Shorai's own site:

http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx

And while resistant to fire, it is not impervious as was shown on my VTR. However, even with Shorai's improvements aside, there is the potential for fire in the case of extreme overcharge. Here are a couple exerpts from other posts I have written on the subject (both on this board, and others), that explain more fully what is happening with your charging system, and more importantly with the Shorai and LifePo batteries. The first is from this XS11 thread: http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35901&page=2

Actually, I have learned a lot more about the cause of the fire, and subsequent Shorai batteries and LiFePo batteries in general...

1. LiFePo (lithium iron phosphate) is actually used, and is not the same as Lithium Ion. It is much more stable, and adept at automotive-type uses.

2. Since the famed fire (incidentally caused by an inadvertant overcharge when the regulator failed), Shorai has since built an overcharge protection into their batteries.
The LiFePo batteries do not handle overcharging well. Without getting into the details of motorcycle charing system types and operation, suffice it to say that when using low amounts of current (ie. switching to LED lights, no accessories, etc), the voltage regulator generates more heat as it disperses the excess current directly to ground. You may have noticed the fins on your regulator for cooling expressly for this purpose. In my case, the regulator was not finned, and was hidden from airflow, and I had removed nearly all the electrical load from the bike. These things combined with being 10 years old caused the regulator to fail--in the full charge mode. Of course the rest is history.
However, I have since switched to an Yamaha R1 MOSFET regulator that is finned, and cooled. It is mounted in the air stream and works well. The MOSFET regulator is much more efficient than the older style one (such as found in the XS), and works cooler than its older counterpart even with the stock loads and charge rates. This conversion will work on any bike should anyone be interested.

MOSFET conversion wiring diagram, regulator plug shown, colors are actual:



3. My initial findings on the Shorai battery were incorrect, as it was more charging system failure causing the concern, coupled with no fail safe in the battery for such an event. The stock XS charging system and components will work well with this battery, particularly given the XS's famed weak charging ability. If load reduction is used in the electrical system (LED lights, etc.) just take care to make sure your voltage regulator is remaining workably cool (they get hot normally anyway). I have yet to hear of a report of one of this same instance in any other bike. Given that my application is very radical, I think my case was on the fringe of probablity. Shorai has been very stand up about all this, and as I stated earlier, has incorporated an overcharge protection to prevent this concern form occurring in the future. I have run my Shorai in my VTR (extreme application) for better than a year, now. It works well, and starts the 996 cc twin quickly, even when hot.

4. The only weakness of the new technology that I have yet been able to determine is its poor cold weather performance. Perhaps odd is a better term. LiFePo has poor conductor ability when cold. While the energy is in the battery, it cannot "flow out". Oddly enough, when starting my bike in cold weather, it works the best to turn on the lights for 30 seconds or so, and then crank the bike (though it won't be fast enough to start) until it won't crank anymore. Then shut the key off, and wait 30 seconds for the battery to recover, and start the bike as normally. The first load applied actually warms the battery, allowing ready current flow and an easy start. It is actually pretty unnerving to do the first couple times, as you are sure the battery is dead, but it is tried and true--the bike starts every time.

5. LiFePo batteries are incredibly light weight, which is why I chose one for my VTR. The stock battery for my VTR was nearly the same size as the XS one. The replacement Shorai weight slightly over one pound, and fit in the palm of my hand. That kind of weight reduction is worth taking note.

The discussion of charging systems as they relate will be the next post...

T99Ford; what wires on the MOSFET R/R , that one would acquire, would match up with the wires that have been disconnected from the old R/R? In above post (no.10), says "....MOSFET conversion wiring diagram, regulator plug shown, colors are actual: " I don't see a pic or a diagram (?) Wanting to do this to my 81 XS11SH.

[T99Ford]

Here you go mate:

[T99Ford]

Here you go mate:



I believe the wire colors correspond directly to most Japanese bikes.

[oldnortonrider]

Here you go mate:



I believe the wire colors correspond directly to most Japanese bikes.

Ok, T99; thanks; the above should help................

[T99Ford]

Woops, had some kind of server error...sorry for the double post!

[oldnortonrider]

Here you go mate:



I believe the wire colors correspond directly to most Japanese bikes.

T99; my rectifier/regulator has 7 wires coming to two connectors; I think I'm supposed to have another wire, which should be 8, as shown in the wiring schematics; PO messed with all the wiring on this machine, before I got it 20 years back. I know what all the R/R wires go to (I think) ~~ but , it looks to appear that all the Mosfet replacement(s) are using 5 wires coming out of the R/R, of which the 3, all white or all yellow do go to the stator. I don't unnerstan' how to hook up the 5 wire R/R to my 7 wires ~~ to convert. If you have an XS11, I'm assuming you've already done this (?)

[crazy steve]

T99; my rectifier/regulator has 7 wires coming to two connectors; I think I'm supposed to have another wire, which should be 8, as shown in the wiring schematics (?)

The factory diagram isn't always right; there's more than one version of the XS regulator. All have the five wire plug with the three stator wires, the red output, and black ground, but there's some that don't have the black ground in the other plug, just the green and brown.

As to hook-up, I would assume that the missing ground wires are taken care of by internally grounding to the metal regulator housing rather than a separate wire (so make the sure the housing is well grounded). As to the brown wire, that could be picked up via the red wire as both are 12v source. The difference is on the XS regulator, the red is hot all the time while the brown is switched (only hot when the key is 'on'). That may not be a problem, but a check of the 'correct' wiring diagram may be needed.

Without getting into the details of motorcycle charging system types and operation, suffice it to say that when using low amounts of current (ie. switching to LED lights, no accessories, etc), the voltage regulator generates more heat as it disperses the excess current directly to ground. You may have noticed the fins on your regulator for cooling expressly for this purpose.

That's more true of permanent-magnet type alternators which run at 100% output all the time and simply shunt the excess to ground. The XS alternator is regulated according to load via the 'field coil' but does generate heat due to it's half-wave rectifiers (shunting the negative half of the sine wave to ground).

Makes you wonder if there's more output to be had from the stock alternator if full-wave rectifiers could be fitted....

[oldnortonrider]

The factory diagram isn't always right; there's more than one version of the XS regulator. All have the five wire plug with the three stator wires, the red output, and black ground, but there's some that don't have the black ground in the other plug, just the green and brown.

As to hook-up, I would assume that the missing ground wires are taken care of by internally grounding to the metal regulator housing rather than a separate wire (so make the sure the housing is well grounded). As to the brown wire, that could be picked up via the red wire as both are 12v source. The difference is on the XS regulator, the red is hot all the time while the brown is switched (only hot when the key is 'on'). That may not be a problem, but a check of the 'correct' wiring diagram may be needed.



That's more true of permanent-magnet type alternators which run at 100% output all the time and simply shunt the excess to ground. The XS alternator is regulated according to load via the 'field coil' but does generate heat due to it's half-wave rectifiers (shunting the negative half of the sine wave to ground).

Makes you wonder if there's more output to be had from the stock alternator if full-wave rectifiers could be fitted....

Here's what I'm looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvhaOHUjy3g FH020AA "Mosfet" rectifier/regulator. If I'm not mistaken, geezers's replacement R/R's were 5 wires (?) weren't they? It almost sounds like the above "FH020AA Mosfet" is a 'one-size-fits-all' , universal upgrade. One of the reason's I wanna go with the "Mosfet" is because I want to put a Shorei battery to replace the old lead-acid HEAVY battery. If one is gonna install a Shorei ~~ might as well upgrade the rectifier. Problem , is ~~ it's not plug 'n play simple, unless I've left a couple wires not connected. 5 wires into seven ~~ c'mon guys, somebody ~~ help me out on this...........I know where three wires go ~~ same place, off each rectifier ~~ they hook up to the three stator wires...........................

[crazy steve]

Geezer's regulators are plug-and-play with the same number of wires.

The regulator you show in the link appears to be for a permanent-magnet type alternator and lacks the output to 'regulate' the field coil. This type operates at 100% output all the time and the 'regulator' shunts the excess current to ground. You could try this type with the XS alternator by grounding the green wire from the field coil, but it will now be operating at full output all the time and how long the coil would last would just be a guess....

[oldnortonrider]

Geezer's regulators are plug-and-play with the same number of wires.

The regulator you show in the link appears to be for a permanent-magnet type alternator and lacks the output to 'regulate' the field coil. This type operates at 100% output all the time and the 'regulator' shunts the excess current to ground. You could try this type with the XS alternator by grounding the green wire from the field coil, but it will now be operating at full output all the time and how long the coil would last would just be a guess....

I made a connect with a fellow in California, that is definitely "Mofset" savvy. In our exchange(s), I sent him the wiring schematic diagram for my 81 XS11. His final verdict was that my particular machine has a "field excited type system". Not Mofset compatible.