Lithium battery?

[daveyg]

Anybody heard of these?
http://www.alienmotion.com/html/batteries.html
At only $140 US it would seem that it's just a few dollars more than our 11's stock replacement battery, and it's only 2lbs!
I'm tempted to buy one and try it out on the 11. Any thoughts?

[clcorbin]

I haven't used the A123 cells in a battery yet, but I have built a pack for my bike, I just haven't installed it yet. In my case, I need to make room for a header tank, so need the huge stock battery to go away...

It shouldn't be charged over 14.4V, so you might want to see what your system runs at going down the highway. These batteries do NOT like to be overcharged and will fairly quickly show their displeasure. Given the generally crappy charging systems on these old bikes, over charging shouldn't be too much of an issue.

As for starting power, the 12 cell version should absolutely KILL the best lead acid battery you can fit in there. Unlike a lead acid battery, they maintain their voltage MUCH better right up until they are discharged. You shouldn't see your lights dimming at stop lights and it should spin the bike over quicker than the stock batter could. I have heard that very cold conditions can lead to lower starting voltage, but starting pulls a lot of current, which heats the battery, which raises the voltage, so it is a bit self correcting.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[daveyg]

I probably won't get one until my current batt takes a crap, but will definitely look into it when it gets to that point. Thanks for the advise on care for the LI cells.

[Geezer]

Don't bother with these unless you want your bike to catch fire...

Geezer

[jwhughes3]

Here is a review of the fire!

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...Shorai+battery

John

[ViperRon]

My understanding of LI cells is that they require consistant charge rates and as stated really do not like to be overcharged or an overcharge rate. They do not handle extreams well either cold or hot. They perform better than lead acid but do have a history of exploding. We discontinued using them in fire control systems at the company I worked at after 2 blew up and destroyed panel systems.

If you keep your bike in a garage in a moderate climate do not over rev the bike and the charging system is in top notch shape I can see where it can pay for itself.

How ever freeze it cook it or overcharge it and you can get a real bang out of being in the hot seat.

If you do use one I suggest a metal canister to protect your self because you do not get a warning.

[daveyg]

Hmmm, very interesting. Well T99 seems to be pleased in the end. No matter how new a technology is, I can't imagine any company wanting a lawsuit for that kind of dangerous situation. Perhaps some additional failsafes may be a good idea, like some kind of overcharge regulator. I am still tempted to get one, but as stated, maybe using a metal battery box for extra insurance, as well as being very cautious the first few rides...

[clcorbin]

Here is a review of the fire!

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...Shorai+battery

John

I hate to tell you guys, but the battery that the OP is talking about used a completely different battery technology than the one shown in the link above. That battery is made from standard LiPo cells, the flat pancake cells used in all your cell phones and laptop computers. And yes, there are a LOT of fairly easy way to catch those cells on fire as any number of people have found out (cell phones, laptops, RC cars/planes/helicopters, motorcycles, etc.)

The battery in the OP's link is made using LiFe cells, which are a WHOLE lot more forgiving than Lipos. I've seen videos of the LiFe cells being intentionally overcharged like crazy with no fire (vented and destroyed, yes; fire, no) and I have seen nails driven through fully charged cells. Again, no fire, but a completely destroyed cell. Basically, there is only a tiny fraction of free lithium in a Life cell versus the lipo cell, so they are much less likely to ignite.

There are things you have to worry about with LiFe batteries, but fire generally isn't one of them.

[daveyg]

Good to know, thanks for that info! When my batt craps out I will definitely look into one of these.

[T99Ford]

Actually, Clcorbin is incorrect. The Shorai battery is Lithium Iron Phosphate--the same as the A123 cell, and is not a Lithium Ion battery as is commonly believed. It is not the same as a cell phone, RC car, etc. The cell structure in the Shorai is flat prismatic cell rather than rolled up as in the A123, so it looks different, but it is most certainly a LiFepo battery.

Here is the proof from Shorai's own site:
http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx


And while resistant to fire, it is not impervious as was shown on my VTR. However, even with Shorai's improvements aside, there is the potential for fire in the case of extreme overcharge. Here are a couple exerpts from other posts I have written on the subject (both on this board, and others), that explain more fully what is happening with your charging system, and more importantly with the Shorai and LifePo batteries. The first is from this XS11 thread: http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35901&page=2

Actually, I have learned a lot more about the cause of the fire, and subsequent Shorai batteries and LiFePo batteries in general...

1. LiFePo (lithium iron phosphate) is actually used, and is not the same as Lithium Ion. It is much more stable, and adept at automotive-type uses.

2. Since the famed fire (incidentally caused by an inadvertant overcharge when the regulator failed), Shorai has since built an overcharge protection into their batteries.
The LiFePo batteries do not handle overcharging well. Without getting into the details of motorcycle charing system types and operation, suffice it to say that when using low amounts of current (ie. switching to LED lights, no accessories, etc), the voltage regulator generates more heat as it disperses the excess current directly to ground. You may have noticed the fins on your regulator for cooling expressly for this purpose. In my case, the regulator was not finned, and was hidden from airflow, and I had removed nearly all the electrical load from the bike. These things combined with being 10 years old caused the regulator to fail--in the full charge mode. Of course the rest is history.
However, I have since switched to an Yamaha R1 MOSFET regulator that is finned, and cooled. It is mounted in the air stream and works well. The MOSFET regulator is much more efficient than the older style one (such as found in the XS), and works cooler than its older counterpart even with the stock loads and charge rates. This conversion will work on any bike should anyone be interested.

MOSFET conversion wiring diagram, regulator plug shown, colors are actual:



3. My initial findings on the Shorai battery were incorrect, as it was more charging system failure causing the concern, coupled with no fail safe in the battery for such an event. The stock XS charging system and components will work well with this battery, particularly given the XS's famed weak charging ability. If load reduction is used in the electrical system (LED lights, etc.) just take care to make sure your voltage regulator is remaining workably cool (they get hot normally anyway). I have yet to hear of a report of one of this same instance in any other bike. Given that my application is very radical, I think my case was on the fringe of probablity. Shorai has been very stand up about all this, and as I stated earlier, has incorporated an overcharge protection to prevent this concern form occurring in the future. I have run my Shorai in my VTR (extreme application) for better than a year, now. It works well, and starts the 996 cc twin quickly, even when hot.

4. The only weakness of the new technology that I have yet been able to determine is its poor cold weather performance. Perhaps odd is a better term. LiFePo has poor conductor ability when cold. While the energy is in the battery, it cannot "flow out". Oddly enough, when starting my bike in cold weather, it works the best to turn on the lights for 30 seconds or so, and then crank the bike (though it won't be fast enough to start) until it won't crank anymore. Then shut the key off, and wait 30 seconds for the battery to recover, and start the bike as normally. The first load applied actually warms the battery, allowing ready current flow and an easy start. It is actually pretty unnerving to do the first couple times, as you are sure the battery is dead, but it is tried and true--the bike starts every time.

5. LiFePo batteries are incredibly light weight, which is why I chose one for my VTR. The stock battery for my VTR was nearly the same size as the XS one. The replacement Shorai weight slightly over one pound, and fit in the palm of my hand. That kind of weight reduction is worth taking note.

The discussion of charging systems as they relate will be the next post...

[T99Ford]

This was posted during the original event at dotheton.com. This was following some extensive research I did into the problem, and the resulting things I learned about motorcycle charging systems, particularly as they applied to my case:


I boned up a little on M/C regulator theory in the last day or so. The original R/R was a thyristor type, and most likely the original. The thyristor regulators, especially older ones, have the capacity to vary their charging rates widely, and then work overtime to keep up. The lead acid battery is better able to absorb the resulting swing of 12-15 volts much easier than the Lipo4 battery. As the regulator is constantly trying to maintain the balance between the charging system and the battery, the reduced margin for error of the Lipo4 creates additional stress upon the system (read heat). When the temperature of the internals of the regulator reach critical mass, they fail in one of two ways: off or on. Mine failed in on, and burned up the battery.
I am now switching to a MOSFET style regulator/ rectifier, as the MOSFET system is much less prone to charging system variables, although working in a much similar way to the thyristor systems. Therefore it is plug and play into the VTR charging system, and will allow for the use of the Lipo4 battery.

Having just spent a little time researching MOSFET and thyristors, as they apply to the regulator application, it becomes very clear as to why the former is the more efficient option.

Both perform a nearly identical function. However, once the thyristor (latching diode, while forward biased) has allowed conductance, it is much slower to release the "latch", especially if the anode current of the diode is exceeding the latching current. So, two things keep the thyristor conductance latched: trigger current, or annode current. If the annode current is above the holding current of the thyristor, it will remain latched. It can be manually switched off by changing the bias of the diode to negative. This method is not used in the Superhawk R/R, as the Superhawk relies on annode current to fall off, allowing the thyristor to open. However, the entire process is slow to react as it is entirely dependent upon the current differential between the trigger current and the anode current to release. This equals more heat. As you would imagine, the whole process is further slowed as the thyristor gets older.

The MOSFET transistor uses a positive gate, more likened to a light switch. When current is applied to the gate of the MOSFET, it closes the switch. When current is removed, the switch opens. This occurs much more quickly due to the switch action's direct relationship to the applied gate current, rather than on current differential between two points. It seems that as the switching action is much more reliant on gate current, this regulating system would be much less prone to the kind of burn down experienced on the SH than are the tyristor types.

Anyway, its kind of nice to know why the charging rates and variables are so much different between the two... The battery did contribute to the overall failure, although perhaps not outright causing it. The failure was due to a marginal regulator, forced to work overtime, and unable to do so. I would caution anyone considering one of these batteries to consider upgrading the regulator/ rectifier to a MOSFET unit (such as found on the Yamaha R6 or R1). The stator is not the issue, only the R/R. A complete measuring of the stock charging range would be in order as well, as the Lipo batteries prefer a range of 13.6-14.4 max for optimal operation.

[T99Ford]

Sorry to put up all this info, but if you are really looking into this option, it is a great way to go. Keep in mind a couple things:

1. Upgrade your charging system. This is a great mod anyway that does not cost a lot and will save you grief in the future. Use a MOSFET R/R.

2. If you ride your bike in the cold, get used to the 'warm up' procedure of the battery. you will not just jump on and start it. I usually attempt to crank mine until it appears dead 3-4 times with a full 10-20 second recovery before it will start if the temp drop below 20 degrees.

3. Make sure you are getting a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery. Lithium Ion is not the same.

Beyond that, enjoy the ridiculously light weight and ease of maintenance. I am going on a year and a half since installation of mine, and it works great.

[daveyg]

Very cool, and great info to add to the reading list, I will definitely go this route when my 11 batt goes out, as the 11 needs whatever weight savings it can get, luckily it rarely goes below 20* F where I live, and my bike now has a insulated, finished garage to reside in, which also houses the furnace and water heater, so it probably won't ever drop below 40*F at the coldest. I will definitely need to look for a R1 regulator though, as I plan on a HID and LEDs for the 11 also...

[James England]

Personally, I don't see the point. Talking of weight saving on a bike the weight of an XS1100 is academic; the weight saving will produce completely negligible differences to performance, fuel economy etc. Ease of maintenance doesn't mean much when one thinks of what's needed on a lead/acid battery. Topping up with a bit of distilled water occasionally...

Changes to the charging system? New regulator? I'm all for new technology and innovations but it all seems a lot of expense for little/no gain. Every XS1100 I've ever had has had a traditional lead/acid battery and I can't personally say they've ever been a problem. Looking at the fire pix and also even trusting to a modified lithium battery really puts me off. My electric bike LifePo battery always gets very warm when charging and I would never leave it unattended on charge. I certainly wouldn't have one in my motorcycle....

[T99Ford]

"weight savings is academic"

....says the guy shopping Marchesini wheels!

While there is a lot of weight to lose on an XS11, as the saying goes, the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time, and 7 lbs loss is a pretty big bite!

As far as the regulator upgrade, I paid $60 for the regulator on the Bay, so cost is pretty negligible--about on par with the fuse system upgrade or other common ones. And it takes a very inefficient regulator that produces a lot of heat and replaces it with a more reliable unit that produces significantly less heat. Looks like a win all the way around on that front, even if you don't put in a battery. No other changes are necessary.

I guess it boils down to what you are looking for in the bike. They work in stock trim, just as they did in 1978, but for those willing to put in a little effort, there are upgrades out there. Its all up to the owner.