Fuel Injection

[Geezer]

How hard would it be to make a spare black box and tuck it in somewhere in the unlikely event the original one died?

Also any chance the early KZ1000 throttle bodies and injectors would work? These turn up cheap from time to time...

Geezer

[Larrym]

Child's Play...

How hard would it be to make a spare black box and tuck it in somewhere in the unlikely event the original one died?

Geezer

Very good question!

I'd say that my best friend's 5'th grader could build one of these boards. (I'm serious...it's not that hard.) He pulled off his own training wheels at 5 and 1/2 with a pair of pliers. You'd be impressed with his LEGO projects too. His room is filled with models of cars, planes, and Star Wars "assemble by numbers" kits. It isn't much of a stretch for him to do a "solder by numbers" project like the Mini Mega Squirt controller.

I would let him build the SPARE board by using the original as the one to copy. Maybe 15 minutes of safety/orientation first. Then I'd give him my temperature controlled soldering iron and an old "dead" board from a TV or Stereo so he could practice soldering/un-soldering components. With a little training and experience I wouldn't hesitate to let him have a go at building the "brain" of the FI system.

Afterwards I would check his work, debug any problems, and buy him a new video game for his troubles.

Point here is that building these boards is no longer "spook" work. ( As in, "The guy that can do that is so smart that its spooky.") It's totally doable by the regular guy/gal.

BTW, my fifth grader "friend" would give me grief if I told him that I planned to throw the board away if it failed. He would tell me about how wrong it is to keep adding to the landfill unnecessarily.....

[Pat Kelly]

How hard would it be to make a spare black box and tuck it in somewhere in the unlikely event the original one died?

Also any chance the early KZ1000 throttle bodies and injectors would work? These turn up cheap from time to time...

Geezer

I carry a spare CDI box on my XS when on trips. This FI brain dosen't look any bigger.

[snowdog51]

fi and the dessert

we are riding across the dessert and dang my fuel pump died i better push my bike cause if i leave it a guy in a pick up truck will take it during my life as a wrench i used to change 3-4 pumps a mounth


so what do all you think

[WMarshy]

we are riding across the dessert and dang my fuel pump died i better push my bike cause if i leave it a guy in a pick up truck will take it during my life as a wrench i used to change 3-4 pumps a mounth


so what do all you think

Carry an extra one.

[mxmikie]

we are riding across the dessert and dang my fuel pump died i better push my bike cause if i leave it a guy in a pick up truck will take it during my life as a wrench i used to change 3-4 pumps a mounth


so what do all you think

only ride the months that the pump did not go out

[fredintoon]

You gotta wait.

we are riding across the dessert and dang my fuel pump died i better push my bike cause if i leave it a guy in a pick up truck will take it during my life as a wrench i used to change 3-4 pumps a mounth. so what do all you think

Hi 'dog,
ya gotta wait. If it's frozen dessert you wait until it melts then float it out. If the dessert has custard on it you wait until the custard skins over then push it out.
If it's a desert, all dry and sandy, you still gotta wait until the guy with the pickup truck comes by so you can offer him money to haul you and the bike out.

[snowdog51]

greatest guys in the world

all of you are the greatest guys in the world

[clcorbin]

...and dang my fuel pump died

Given that most fuel pumps last between 80,000 and 125,000 miles and given that my 31 year old 1979 XS1100 only has 63,000 miles on it, I'm not TOO worried about the fuel pump going out!

But yes, this is a point to take into consideration. For me, I'll take the slight increase in potential problems AND the much better fuel economy, better throttle response and NEVER HAVING TO PULL THE BLOODY CARBS AGAIN in that trade!

[snowdog51]

pumps

new bikes fail sooner than that

[g15usmc]

My brother bought a new Victory, with fuel injection, about a year ago. A couple months back, he was telling me, that he thought, that it was idling a bit faster than he would like for it to idle. He knew he couldn't adjust it. He told me he took it to the dealer, asked the dealer, how much of a problem to drop the idle down a tad. Dealer told him he couldn't adjust it; would have to pull the injection system, and send it to the factory .

? WHUUUUUUUUUUT!? ?

That is absolutely rediculous...i've never known any vehicle you couldn't turn the idle down on...Though I do like the carbs because they aren't hard to work on and are reletively cheap to fix I do like FI if not for any other reason than for the fact that i can start my bike anytime i want to without using a choke...My other bike is a Suzuki Marauder 1600...Much like your brothers Victory it is FI...On one side or the other, also possible to be in the middle under the back of the fuel tank there should be a screw of some sort that changes the idle...I Could be wrong, but the Victory's that i run into were able to change the idle without any kind of work being done other than twisting a screw...often times on the v-twins even with FI there is also a choke, he might want to make sure that it is pushed in all the way...he should also make sure that his idle is between 800 and 1000 RPMs at turn on any lower and he'll end up stalling at a stop light as the idle is going to go lower as the bike warms up due to the nature of how a FI works...either way, GOOD LUCK!

[shutchis]

EFI Idle adjustment

Wow, I installed an EFI system on my '80 XS1100 and an '82 XJ1100 and I adjust the idle all the time. I add a little extra air when it's warming up by opening the throttle plates. I could add an IAC valve, but the thumb screw is so simple; why complicate things. I like EFI; carbs are great when everything works. HD did a great job designing their EFI system, Hmm, I guess Victory should take lessons.

[81xsproject]

Wow, I installed an EFI system on my '80 XS1100 and an '82 XJ1100 and I adjust the idle all the time. I add a little extra air when it's warming up by opening the throttle plates. I could add an IAC valve, but the thumb screw is so simple; why complicate things...

Because you CAN, Stan. I am getting close to testing my new PMW IAC valve. I got tired of the screw, real tired; Every start-up, a little more because it's cold, a little less because the motors still kind of warm, less and less and less as it warms up. PITA. Push the starter button and go. That is one of the most amazing things about FI, IMHO.

[g15usmc]

Then I would keep my mouth shut and you wouldn't be reading this.

The Black Box Theory:

I have no doubts that FI hardware/software can be used to optimize the fuel delivery for my bike. Economy and Mpg? Sure!! Power and performance??? That as well!! But how this is done makes me a little twitchy:



From what I've read, the above pic is what the insides of the black box/BRAIN of a FI system looks like. Take another look...could you find a defective component like an IC , diode, resistor, or transistor with your eyes alone? That's the problem with "looking" at electronics parts: Your eyes don't tell you much unless the part has catastrophically failed, caught fire, and let the "magic smoke" out.

To fix anything on this board test equipment and the training to use them is needed. Just a thought but I'd suspect that more than a digital Multimeter would be required. Dual trace oscilloscope? Digital signal/pulse generator? Capacitance checker?? Maybe an entire test jig which simulated the inputs/outputs and generated Error codes??? Or does the owner simply throw it away and plug in a new one? Send it back to an "Authorized Service Center" with pre-paid postage both ways???? I honestly don't know....seriously.

If the support from the Mfg is present then with the proper test equipment I would be able to diagnose this baby down to the component level: I've got degrees in Electronics/Computers/Robotics. But I'd like to have that "support" from the Mfg: Full electrical schematic, the "pin out" of each IC, component locations, component item list, theory of operation, block diagram, test points and test procedures. Piece of cake when ya got all that, right? Guaranteed success!

Without the ability to troubleshoot this brain board down to the component level, it becomes a "Black Box" which is treated as a single replaceable component. You know, like the electronic modules which control the ignition on our bikes: TCI. (No support there AFAIK...) I can only test its function and hopefully have a spare "known good" one to swap it out with when a problem arises.

Component Level Testing/Replacement:

The carbs can be diagnosed down to "component" level by using the test equipment built right into my face: eyes, ears, nose. (Yup..the PO broke off the main jet and part of it is still there at the bottom of the float bowl...) It's the same process but with different test equipment and different parts to replace. Difference is that low tech tools and test equipment is used.

For quite a while now, the auto industry has been taking steps to "lock-out" the home mechanic/do-it-yourself by requiring special tools/test equipment. (I was absolutely furious when I found out that I couldn't set my truck's ignition timing: no timing marks at all. It had to be set with a special magnetic pickup!!) Open the hood of a 2009 Camaro and take a look: not much you can do but look. On a 1969 Camaro you can see and do quite a lot. Just saying that no matter how well the newer stuff increases efficiency, mileage, Horsepower, etc., if I am locked out then I'll pass on the deal.

For the record, the guys who have done the FI Mod are really devious. I mean that in a good way. As in every little device which makes our lives easier or better had to be devised by people with minds that thought up the notion and then overcame all the myriad of problems that arose as they tried to implement their vision. I do hold them and what they have accomplished in high regard.

I'd prob'ly buy their FI bikes if they were up for sale and I didn't already have an XS1100.

Not to bash on your multi-degree in electronics/computers/robotics...but don't you think you could check your Cap's with an ohm meter...you know like what comes on a multi-meter? and to be completely honest, If you really think about it, knowing what you know as a Technician you could prolly narrow down what on that board could be an issue as far as replacing pieces on it...the main IC is quick-swap capable, and if i were going to start replacing things i would prolly pick things in priority from what i think could be wrong the most...though if your wrong all the way down to the caps and resistors you could end up spending some money to fix it, i'm guessing with your degree you could prolly guess what to pick next after the main IC...such as the relay's which are pretty common now adays, im just saying that because they are the same relays i have in my 06 GMC... then from there if that didn't do it, i'd go to the stacked transistor, on to the smaller IC's and then of course to my tiny components such as the caps and resistors...which i'm sure you quite know if they are bad your prolly looking at some black burn holes on the board...and might need to start thinking about how your wiring is screwed up or what is causing such a surge on your "brain" board...as far as the caps are concerned you can do an ohm check with a multi-meter and when it comes to the diodes and transistors you can use a continuity check...preferably an audible one that makes a quick beep when its in the forward biasing portion of the transistor and a steady beep when its reverse biased such as in a zener diode or when its shorted...this same test could be used to check your resistors as well as your ic chips if you have a schematic diagram, which often times is drawn right on top of the IC itself...btw you are more than welcome to correct me...i dont have a degree... btw i do know how to use all of that test equipment you've mentioned...the "O"-scope and Sig-Gen's and as you must know having a degree, just about all circuit boards are labeled with what component is what...and just like in my truck i'm willing to bet there is a label somewhere that says what relay is where etc...and if you want to know the theory of operation on a relay, i'll be more than happy to explain...

Your argument about the EFI being crap cause its too hard to troubleshoot is not quite on point...EFI isn't hard to troubleshoot...more expensive to fix? maybe... but its really not as hard to fix as most make it out to be... you being a tech of sorts should know this... its actually easier to remove 2 screws and a couple cables than it is to take 4 carbs off and dismantle them...cheaper on the other hand...yes prolly...but not necessarily...if its just a relay you can get them a dime a dozen from most auto stores...ic's you can get from radio-shack if its near... it does however take a touch of skill to replace components with a solder gun and solder if you've never done it before... but then again, so is ripping a complete carb apart and putting it back together if you've never done it...especially without losing a spring or needle or pin or little ball bearing...and if you dont know anything about a carb and you lose one of those things and dont know you need it, your gonna end up with some issues too... In short i think that our best answer would be to know how to do both...and I'm sure you do...so if the carbs are easier for you...do it...on my side of the house, im gonna stick with the carbs not because its easier, but because its cheaper than replacing...though i'm thinking they both, carb-rebuild and efi installation, are prolly about the same skill level for me...

still curious about the "capacitance checker" though my scholarly friend...

Please dont think im trying to "RAG" on you...i just like the conversation...the techi talk so to speak...

XS11 FOREVER!! SEMPER!

[3Phase]

Not to bash on your multi-degree in electronics/computers/robotics...but don't you think you could check your Cap's with an ohm meter...you know like what comes on a multi-meter?

Short multi-degree answer: No.

Your argument about the EFI being crap cause its too hard to troubleshoot is not quite on point

...

Please dont think im trying to "RAG" on you...i just like the conversation...the techi talk so to speak...

No one except you has said that EFI is "crap."