Bad Oil

[James England]

The point is.... what effect do friction additives have on the FD swap?

Only kidding! This oil thread seems as heated as the FD one...... nice to know I'm not the only one who can get carried away sometimes! Steady on gentlemen... we're all on the same side...

[crazy steve]

Greg is casting too wide of a net; not all 'friction modifiers' are bad, and some are actually needed in modern oils. ATF has 'friction modifiers' in it too, but those are specifically for 'wet clutches' and needed to prevent slipping (and no, I'm not recommending you use ATF in your bike!). Quite frankly, quoting anything from Amsoil is enough to cast doubt on a opinion for me... those guys are snake-oil salemen...

Bottom line, if you're looking at motor oil, the stuff to avoid is anything marked as 'fuel saving'; you'll find this in the circle logo below the API rating.

[BA80]

Those aren't my words Steve, those articles I posted links to are what I'm going by.

Granted, the one is from Amsoil but clearly isn't a sales pitch, rather an informational article.

The other was written by a retired chemist from an unnamed major oil company and motorcyclist himself.He does however say at the end of the article that he himself uses automotive oil but you have to be VERY carful as to what additives are in it.

It truly depends on the bike and rider as to the preferences. After switching from automotive oil to that formulated for motorcycles I can say that I didn't realize what a difference it would make until I had. I'll never go back and I will promote it's use.

[cywelchjr]

In a word, BS. Your need to rephrase that to say friction modifiers MAY cause problems. I've been using 'friction modified' oil for 12 years in my 11 and I've not had the clutch slip once in that time. (and i dont ride like a grandmother, and I'm often 2 up)

I have to agree with you here. Friction modifiers MAY cause problems. Now the fact is that a very HIGH number of XS11 owners have found friction modifiers to cause problems with the clutch, but it is not guaranteed to happen, however I personally would not take the chance, nor would I recommend it to someone else, and neither do the oil manufacturers, as they specifically markets oil WITHOUT the friction modifiers for wet clutches, they would not do that if they thought it was fine otherwise. So I would go one step further to they are LIKELY to cause clutch problems, and if you run oil with them, and have clutch slippage, the FIRST step is to switch to oil without them.

[crazy steve]

What Brian was trying to say is that saying that "all friction modifiers will cause problems" is false, and he's correct. Anything that changes the lubrication qualities of an oil is a 'friction modifier'; ZDDP is/was added to oils to improve lubrication on 'rubbing' surfaces (camshafts/lifters primarily) and would be considered as a 'modifier', but is a good additive to have in a motorcycle oil. Virtually all multi-weight oils are a chemists' brew of friction modifiers, viscosity improvers, and whatnot, and claiming that one class of additives is bad just isn't true. Telling someone they're wrong (when they're not) is a bit more than 'promoting'....

Let's all play nice, ok?

I just went to town to pick up some oil, and I'll note that the oil packaging now says 'energy conserving' rather than 'fuel saving', so that's the new catchphrase to look for...

By the way, I bought the cheap house-brand 20w50 ($3 a qt) and expect zero problems from it's use...

[cywelchjr]

Well, I was already running full syn. 10w/40 and did not have any problems till I went with mobil1 20w/50. That's what i'm trying to figure out why. I am partial to full syn. Just looking into every option to avoid splitting case.

First it doesn't take splitting the cases, just opening the side cover, and can be done without even draining the oil. But, before even considering a clutch change, if you didn't have trouble and change oil and do now, go back to the oil you didn't have the problem with. If you still have trouble, try a quality dino oil without friction modifiers, which means in most cases at least 10w40 and in some case 20w50 (IIRC the manual says 20w40 which I've not seen anywhere anymore) as most 10w40 and below now has friction modifiers unless you get MC specific stuff and see if that helps. If it does, then it's oil induced, if not, it's wear.

Now I have to agree with some, the only real advantage to synthetic oil is the ability to extend oil change intervals and still maintain lubrication and protection and better heat reduction. I don't see that as an issue with these engines, as I agree with TC that I'm not sure that even with quality synthetic I would be comfortable with extending oil change intervals by much if any (maybe on a long distance trip, since oil gets dirty slower since the engine runs cleaner under those conditions). We see these engines if the oil doesn't get diluted with gas run in excess of 100,000 miles running conventional oils, and I'm not sure that synthetics would make much difference, they sure won't protect against gas dilution any better, and that's the number 1 enemy of these engines it seems, that and lean running and cam chain tensioner issues.

[James England]

snake-oil salemen...

Got ya.... so I use snake oil in the FD then? Is that what you're saying?

[WMarshy]

...Now I have to agree with some, the only real advantage to synthetic oil is the ability to extend oil change intervals and still maintain lubrication and protection and better heat reduction...

I do not agree with that statement. If you go onto any oil manufacturers web site and read, you will find that they do not recommend extending the service intervals for synthetic... Im not saying I don't do it! Just saying thats not the purpose of synthetic...

[BA80]

Any kind of friction modifier will cause problems.

I had to go back and see where I might have said that and there it is, I did.

I must admit, that statement was incorrect as it was stated. It does seem to cover them all. Purely unintentional.

I see Brian did quote that to me and apparently being the hard headed @$$hole I am just didn't recognize it.

I stand corrected and appologize to all for my zeal.

I do however believe that the formulas blended for motorcycles exclusively is the best, smartest way to go and I will stand by that.

[crazy steve]

I do not agree with that statement. If you go onto any oil manufacturers web site and read, you will find that they do not recommend extending the service intervals for synthetic... Im not saying I don't do it! Just saying thats not the purpose of synthetic...

That's just because the lawyers slapped the engineers after they excitedly announced their new baby...

When Mobil1 first came out, it was touted as being able to go thousands of miles further than conventional oil before changing, but as soon as it was figured out that they would be on the hook for warranties if somebody did and had a problem, that claim disappeared...

If you read carefully between the lines, they still say the oil lasts much longer and you could extend the change interval, but in such a way so as to avoid liability.