Bad Oil

[crazy steve]

...Now a little more detail in the features and benefits section for V-Twin 20w/50 it says "Has optimized frictional properties" .What does that mean?

V-twins are generally (and Harleys in particular) small-bore, long-stroke motors. This puts higher thrust loads on the piston skirts because of the larger anglular displacement, so they need an oil that resists 'smearing' more. Use the wrong oil, and scuffed pistons are the result.

I'll add that one way to tell if an oil is working well is to monitor oil temp. That is one thing that synthetics seem to do better than dino (carry away heat), so if high oil temps is an issue for you, they're worth looking at. The oil is part of the bike's 'cooling system' after all. But if that's not a problem, you won't see much benefit...

[Nubian]

V-twins are generally (and Harleys in particular) small-bore, long-stroke motors. This puts higher thrust loads on the piston skirts because of the larger anglular displacement, so they need an oil that resists 'smearing' more. Use the wrong oil, and scuffed pistons are the result.

I'll add that one way to tell if an oil is working well is to monitor oil temp. That is one thing that synthetics seem to do better than dino (carry away heat), so if high oil temps is an issue for you, they're worth looking at. The oil is part of the bike's 'cooling system' after all. But if that's not a problem, you won't see much benefit...

Bingo!
That explains it all, that means it has friction modifiers. So i'll bet any full synthetic oil with no friction modifiers should work fine.

[BA80]

Nub, it looks like you've made up your mind anyway. Go ahead and run the synthetic it is a superior lubricant to the old dino oil as far as far as holding up to heat and pressure. Unfortunately it is considerably more expensive.

Some say it runs well for them. Let us know how things are working out for you in 6 months or a year.

[crazy steve]

Bingo!
That explains it all, that means it has friction modifiers. So i'll bet any full synthetic oil with no friction modifiers should work fine.

No, that's not neccesarily true; you can't lump all 'friction modifiers' together; some are different than others. I will note though that Harleys don't run their clutches in the same lube as the 'engine'; the clutch and tranny have a separate sump and have their own lube. But this oil is recommended for all V-twins, not just Harleys, so if any of the 'clones' are using a common sump for the engine/trans/clutch, then this oil would be OK...

[Nubian]

Nub, it looks like you've made up your mind anyway. Go ahead and run the synthetic it is a superior lubricant to the old dino oil as far as far as holding up to heat and pressure. Unfortunately it is considerably more expensive.

Some say it runs well for them. Let us know how things are working out for you in 6 months or a year.

Well, I was already running full syn. 10w/40 and did not have any problems till I went with mobil1 20w/50. That's what i'm trying to figure out why. I am partial to full syn. Just looking into every option to avoid splitting case.

[3Phase]

Just looking into every option to avoid splitting case.

Meh, your bike is just getting old! The normal service wear items need to be serviced and replaced because they are worn, not because of the oil.

20W-50 oil is really thick when it's cold and that can make the starter clutch skip and not engage. What is the temperature when the starter clutch acts up? Does it only do it when the engine is cold or does it keep doing it after the engine is warmed up?

The engine clutch friction plates, steels, and springs aren't difficult to replace: replace them.

The starter clutch is a little more involved because you do have to split the cases to replace it but it's still not difficult: replace it.

I had the same angst you have now about splitting the engine cases when the starter clutch began to act up on my '80G. A former regular forum member, Tod, convinced me that it was easy to do; man saved my life, too, because after I took heart and just dove in and split the cases I discovered that, along with a few other minor technicalities, the crankshaft connecting rod journals and connecting rod bearings were bad and were about ready to let go!

Just do it, Ed, YKIMS.

[BA80]

A former regular forum member, Tod, convinced me that it was easy to do;

That would be trbig and he is still alive and well on XS11.org and he still knows more about the internal workings of these bikes than most because he has broken and repaired nearly EVERY part on one at one time or another.

[3Phase]

That would be trbig and he is still alive and well ....

LOL! Yep, you know it, Greg, and thrifty, too!

The last I heard he was filming some kind of preliminary test documentary about how many miles he could get out of a set of cheap handlebar grips by riding his XS inverted instead instead of on the 'spendy tires.

Tod doesn't need synthetic oil, he needs a synthetic XS he can tear apart and put back together, ride, crash, and reboot from his livingroom couch.

But he was right! It's easy to split the cases on an XS/XJ engine. Just make sure you use, you know, tools, real tools, to do it instead of some random solid object along the side of the road.

[BA80]

Actually...... the random solid object WAS the side of the road.

Crazy thing is, 15 minutes earlier just before we started back up the road he was saying he had never crashed an XS...................he's always been on an XJ.

[3Phase]

... he was saying he had never crashed an XS...................he's always been on an XJ.

[face palm]

Tod ....

[/face palm]

[b.walker5]

Now that you're really confused about what oil to use.. read this http://www.theyeagergroup.com/oil_bible_motorcycle.pdf and then Google "the truth about motorcycle oils" for more misinformation and opinion. Bottom line is 'no oil is truly bad for your engine' (except perhaps diesel oil and cooking oil) and what you finally select will be down to what you're comfortable with. For me it's Castrol, for others it's Mobil, for some it may even be Chevron, but in all cases it's what the owner is comfortable using. period. For the Anorak brigade there's unlimited science to confuse the issue but for the most part, most of us simply don't care about that. If it works for others then it's going to work for you. No one is sticking their hand up with horror stories of engine failures and melt downs through bad oil choices, so I think your pretty safe with most any good quality oil out there. My Castrol brand has friction modifiers in it and I have no clutch issues what so ever, and I use it in both bikes. Be brave, pick one and go for it.

[BA80]

The only confusion occured when you piped up, Brian,and disagreed with everything that has been said or researched here about motocycle oil.

Are you saying that the people who manufacture the stuff are wrong zipzap?

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Greg,

Remember, play nice, this isn't the HBT. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

My thoughts about Synth is that it was designed for CARS to help extend the service intervals so folks wouldn't have to be "bothered" with pesky oil/filter changes as often. Cars are water cooled, and run at lower temps than our air cooled bikes, so the oils aren't necessarily put thru as much stress, and can therefore last longer, not break down as fast, and allow the longer change interval. They are also fuel injected, computer metered, and proper fuel/air ratios and timings are continuously being adjusted so that they burn more completely, and so I theorize that there's less leftover hydrocarbons to slip past the rings and contaminate the oil.

Ours are also older engines, wider clearance tolerances with pistons/rings, and usually running rich, etc. as well as much hotter, and so more contaminants can get past the rings to dirty up the oil much faster, and so even though we have oil filters, the oils are still dirtier near the 2-3k service interval, and so are usually needing changing anyways. The quality 20/50 dino oils hold up well against the thermal breakdown process, but it gets DIRTY, and IMHO is ready for changing. I don't like the idea of running DIRTY hydrocarbon contaminated oil in my XS engine for 5-7k miles!

SO...having to change it more often for me negates the durability of the synths and therefore I can't justify the price either! YMMV!

T.C.

[BA80]

I'm really tryin' TC. We just had a whole long thread going there with research and FACTS about the whole thing and even though I value almost anyones opinion that one was completely wrong in MY opinion and the oil manufacturers also.

Ahhhhhh............just another oil thread..........how about some tires.

[DGXSER]

Oh Goody an oil thread!!

Think of your bike oil like you think of your car oil. I learned this myself after being so warry of it at first as well. And I know of ALOT of bikes with more than 70k miles on regular old auto dino oil with no problems.

Only difference being, it is pretty common on this site to find folks who have similar issues to yours after switching to synthetic, and they find the issues go away after switching to dino oil. There are those who use full synthetic with no issues, but if your having those symptoms, its cheap enough to swap oil rather than splitting cases and all that stuff. If you find that corrects the problems...well...it ain't rocket science.