Final Drive Swap Poll

[jetmechmarty]

Cy,

With all due respect, I totally disagree with you. I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Marty (in TX)

[cywelchjr]

Cy,

With all due respect, I totally disagree with you. I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Marty (in TX)

You might not realize that I understand where your coming from. Being that your in aviation, where you pretty much NEVER deviate from design, unless the manufacturer has sent out a bulletin specifying a change order, this is sacrilege to you. Although I notice you have no problem with modifying the forks from stock, or adding a fork brace. I'm quite happy setting my bike up with the gearing that the engineers from Yamaha actually intended it to have. It's so clearly far happier with that gearing, and since it's what the guys with the pocket protectors designed it to have, I figure I just gave the sales weasels the flying fickle finger if fate.

[jetmechmarty]

I don't have a problem with modifications. Only this one. I only have a problem with this one because it turns the bike into a "cruiser". If that's what you want to do, that's fine. Just because there's a 1.9 differential available for my Chevy doesn't mean I want to install it. I need that "kick" coming out of the corners and the ease of finding that sweet spot in the gearbox as I navigate a winding road. I like to think I understand a little about gearing and load.

I do not use my bike to commute on the super slab. I do not live in Kansas or any such place that has straight, flat roads.

I hope that explains my position without causing anyone undue distress.

As far as the "original design" including the 2.97 box. You're going to have to prove it to me. Weren't ALL XS11's delivered with the same final drive ratio?

And finally, if I ever decide to acquire a standard model, I have learned here that I will need to modify it to a 16 inch wheel with 130/90-16 tire.

I don't think I care to argue about this any more unless you buy me a beer!

[DGXSER]

Opinion....buy definition a personal preferance. Be it based in fact or pure speculation or even out right ignorance. (not that I am suggesting any of the above fits any opinion stated to date.) Why the need to try to "convert" (pun intended) one person from their opinion to another opinion?

I figure it alot like I always tell my kids about snitching on someone, if they are going to get hurt, or someone else is going to get hurt, then yes, tell someone what is going on. Otherwise, I do not want to hear about it.

[jetmechmarty]

We come here to learn, specifically about care and feeding of a 30+ year old motorcycle. We can no longer contact "the mothership" or the dealer, because they certainly don't care. We do.

Technology has advanced in the last 30 years and motorcycles are no exception. There are now modifications we can make to these motorcycles to make them better. This is a good place to learn about them. How else would I know I could improve my bike with a VMAX cam chain tensioner?

For the most part, this board consists of "regular Joe" vintage motorcycle owners rather than mechanical engineers. These discussions serve as a way to "weed out" good vs. questionable repairs and modifications.

That being said, I felt that the FD swap was being touted as an improvement in the universal sense. I contend that it is not. It is "my opinion" that it is not an improvement at all. At least not for me. It makes the motorcycle different, and not necessarily better.

I feel this opinion needed to be represented, lest someone down the line, with little knowledge or experience, researching this topic might accept a single opinion on this subject as gospel.

[icecycle]

Viewers choice

I've 2- 82 XJ1100's. One converted with an 850 and the other original. Both have about the same mileage. Typical ride includes 400 series to Muskoca's 2 lane twists. Those that attended the Minden rally last year know what kind of roads I speak of.
In my opinion you have to look for the difference in road performance it is there. As for fuel savings my wallet says the conversion was a good idea every tank full every time. Sometimes riding home the gas stations in the "Near North" are closed because the chickens have gone to bed, so to me conversion is a good thing.

[James England]

And finally, if I ever decide to acquire a standard model, I have learned here that I will need to modify it to a 16 inch wheel with 130/90-16 tire.

I don't understand that bit..... I have a standard and it has a 17" wheel.......is the US standard different to the European one?

[James England]

Reading the 'it's good' v 'it's no good' posts about the FD swap, I think perhaps we should clarify what is essentially a value judgement about the swap.

It seems to me that there are two aspects:

1. Is the swap 'bad' mechanically? ie does running the 750FD on the 1100 cause mechanical failures, faults, damage, attrition, wear etc etc. If, for example, it was found that clutches blew regularly, or the drive shaft wrecked the UJ joint or whatever, then we would all safely be able to say that it's a 'bad' modification... or 'no good'. Right?

but

2. If by 'no good' or 'bad' or 'useless' we merely mean that we personally do not like the way the bike rides/feels after the FD swap, then we really should say "I don't like what it does to the ride" or "the effect on the gears is not something I personally like" etc.

Point 2 is a completely different thing from Point 1. A mechanically adequate modification which results in performance not liked by the rider isn't 'bad', it's just not suitable. Conversely, a mechanically inadequate mod. that the rider likes the results in performance for isn't 'good', is it?

Looking at the many posts re the swap, it seems to me that it is not inherently the cause of mechanical failure at all. My own view is that a less stressed engine must last longer and have less wear and tear. As many people have noted, the engine feels "happier". There are no reports of gearboxes exploding, FD's cracking apart under the increased load etc etc. There are plenty of posts about the FD swap being "no good" aka "I don't like the effect on the ride". That is absolutely OK too, as has been remarked upon.... people like different rides. It turns the bike into a "cruiser".... "it wasn't meant to be like that"......."it feels happier".... etc are all personal opinions and equally valid, eh?

If I start reading about exploding FD's, clutch/gearbox failure or, heaven help me, start posting about it myself, then I'll be the first to put the OEM drive back on!

[jetmechmarty]

FD's cracking apart under the increased load

That is the $60,000 question. Is THAT a problem? I don't claim to have the answer.

[Geezer]

I don't get out on the interstate much. I mostly ride back roads and around town and I like the lower (stock) gearing for that.

The 850 midnight drive is still up for grabs...

Geezer

[Bonz]

Thanks Geezer for the input, I appreciate you sharing the kind of riding you do. I would not swap the FD if I was mostly riding back roads or around town either.

With that said, the "good" vs "evil" aspect of the swap was a result of claims that the FD swap would cause premature wear to the clutch, lower end, and other things of ill nature, and that has not been shown to be true to any extent. When it comes to the components of the bike wearing out sooner with the FD swap, my opinion/contention is that it has no play, and that has been borne out pretty well here.

As well, it's hard to argue with a lower engine rpm showing improved gas mileage and inevitably less engine wear for those of us that ride at legal speed limits considerably higher than when this bike was made. That has been shown beyond a reasonable doubt as well.

The bottom line is the swap becomes a matter of how the bike feels to the rider and how the bike performs the function it needs to for the owner.

James England, you fellows over the pond have a great way of presenting things, and your words show great consideration in how you choose them!

Thanks to all, and to all a good night!

[cywelchjr]

That is the $60,000 question. Is THAT a problem? I don't claim to have the answer.

There are lots of guys with more miles on 750 FD's than many have on their bikes with no problems with them. You're not gonna have trouble with anything else, their the same parts, with the same amount of engagement on things like the splines of the yoke etc, so if there were ANY weak point it would be the FD. More than one guy has got in excess of 20k on the mod and not babying it either, so I think that durability has been pretty much proven.

Checking FD temp after rides, the 750 FD is at least runs cooler surface temps than my original did, and other than damage from abuse, heat is the #1 enemy of mechanical parts.

While you don't claim to have the answer, you do appear to claim that nobody does, including those with significant mileage on the mod. The only known failures to date were within a short time of the mod being done and were based on KNOWN mistakes being made with the process of performing the modifications.

As for the performance thing, IIRC it was in a quote from XS11 heaven where it's quoted about the final drive ratio being changed from that being used by the 750/850's at the last minute for that all important 1/4 mile time. This came from someone who was there, and knew what was going on and such.

From a performance standpoint, I would not totally discount it until you have a chance to ride a bike with the mod of like model to your own. Then you would be truly in a position to make an informed judgement. If your happy with how your bike performs and your FD is fine I wouldn't suggest changing just to try it, but if you have a chance to test ride someone's bike who has the mode I recommend you give it a try, you might be surprised (then again you might not). Honestly, I do get on the freeway sometimes, but most of my riding is around town and twisty road and hills and mountain roads. I just run 1 gear down, and hardly even notice the slightly slower start in 1st.

I'm not pushing here, just suggesting that if you get a chance to ride a modified machine like yours, give it a try, then you'll know if it's for you or not, and you will either find yourself knowing for sure it's not for you or find yourself looking for an FD.

[James England]

Checking FD temp after rides, the 750 FD is at least runs cooler surface temps than my original did, and other than damage from abuse, heat is the #1 enemy of mechanical parts.

Yes! I noticed that too. Why does it run cooler, do you think?

[James England]

[QUOTE=hbonser;322421]]James England, you fellows over the pond have a great way of presenting things, and your words show great consideration in how you choose them!/QUOTE]


Your comment reminds me of a quote of (I think...) Oscar Wilde who was talking about the Brits and the Americans..... "Two peoples, divided by a common language" In my own case, I have several cousins, an aunt and a late uncle (who actually fought in Vietnam) who are American. We've had some fun comparing words eg a 'rubber' in UK English is an 'eraser'.... it's somewhat different in the US. A US 'fanny' is very, very vulgar here and a completely different part of the female human anatomy. etc. We have to choose our words carefully!

[James England]

That is the $60,000 question. Is THAT a problem? I don't claim to have the answer.

Looking at the previous posts, I'd say it isn't a problem because there have been no posts about it and people have done thousands of miles with the swap. I get the impression that, on older bikes, the design is biased towards strength rather than slimming everything down to reduce weight and having a very small margin for error on what components will take. For example, I fitted nitrous oxide to my last XS1100 and it added over 90bhp at the rear wheel. So, that's almost doubling the bhp of the bike. I ran it like that for a year and went through loads of gas. Nothing ever broke. I get the impression that it's because everything on the bike is so beefy. They pull trikes with 4 people on and are a very popular engine for that over here....