New foglights-did they fry my regulator?

[jurgenkoppen]

Jurgen here from BC.
I did buy one of Geezers modified regulators a while back.
I did not put it into my bike until last week: I had bought some fog lights,
and I thought that the extra amps might come in handy.
Worked OK for about 1/2 day, then in evening, with fog lights on, the
regulator suddenly packed it in.
Could it be that the draw of an extra 10amps (2x55watts) was too much and
caused the modified regulator to fry?
I did put my old one back in, and it is charging OK again now. But I am afraid to use the fog lights now....even though they are fused with a 15 amp fuse.
Can anyone shed some 'light' on this riddle?

[psycoreefer]

I'm sure geezer will probably poke his head in and give better info then I can but....

I don't think any amount of "extras" if properly wired would cause the regulator to fail, the worst you might see is a dead battery after running with your lights on.

How did you hook up your fog lights?

[Geezer]

If the bike didn't charge with the old reg/rec unit, I would say he cooked a connection somewhere. Yo don't want to pull that much power through the ignition switch and using a relay is called for.

Odds are there was a weak component in the unit somewhere and it popped under load. I'll eMail you with return instructions.

Geezer

[Larrym]

Better to Burn-Out than Fade-Away??

Jurgen here from BC.
Could it be that the draw of an extra 10amps (2x55watts) was too much and
caused the modified regulator to fry?

There's a way for you to find out: perform the "resistance/continuity" checks on the suspect rectifier. If in fact the rectifier fails these checks then the rectifier failed under that additional 10 amp load.

To verify this you could use the fog lamps again and see if it reproduces the same "rectifier burn-out" on the one you have installed. (Just kidding here...no way should you try this but the point is valid: too much load on the rectifier will fry it like it was bologny on a campfire grill.)

I think others might chime in here and confirm that any extra lighting has to be high efficiency/low amperage due to the charging system's max output and the narrow margin between having everything OEM on/running/drawing power and the max power the system can provide.

Magic 8-Ball sez: likely true. 10 amps is too much. Pull the fuse on the fog lights until you get a more definite answer so you don't have the temptation.

[XS1100 Newbie]

According to Bob Jones, if you add very much onto these bikes, it will kill the alternator. Other than that the charging system is supposed to be solid.

[Geezer]

According to Bob Jones, if you add very much onto these bikes, it will kill the alternator. Other than that the charging system is supposed to be solid.

I find that as time goes on, I find myself disagreeing with Mr Jones more and more. Too much draw will run the battery down but not kill the charging system...

Using fog lights or add on running lights has to be an as needed thing and not all the time. I have a set of small running lights that I will be installing on my 79 this summer if I get to it. I figure I'll mount them low for cornering lights...

Geezer

[psycoreefer]

I've never understood this myth that more "load" like lights ect can fry some part of the charging system.
Maybe someone can explain it to me but it seems like the charging system can put out some number of AMP, lets say 20, just made that up.
If my bike is using 15, when running then the extra 5 is either put to use charging the battery or if the battery is fully charged its wasted as heat. Right?

Now if I add more load, like say 5 amp driving lights, now my bike uses all the 20amps the charging system can provide, I may not notice anything right away, but everytime I start the bike I drain the battery a bit and it never charges because there is no extra power to charge it with, eventually my battery will be dead and I'll be puzzled. Right?

Now say I add something else, a set of heated grips that pull 10amps, my charging system still puts out 20, but I'm using 30, now my battery will drain as I'm riding, likely my lights will be "dim" and I'll know there is a problem. Its not like I'm "pulling" 30amps through a 20amp hose and burn things up, there is only 20 amps to be had, except the battery is there to provide the difference, but that doesn't back feed through the charging system in any way. Right?


I've also never understood the "don't jump start your bike with a car because you'll fry it" thing, but that's another subject.

[3Phase]

I've never understood this myth that more "load" like lights ect can fry some part of the charging system.
Maybe someone can explain it to me but it seems like the charging system can put out some number of AMP, lets say 20, just made that up.
If my bike is using 15, when running then the extra 5 is either put to use charging the battery or if the battery is fully charged its wasted as heat. Right?

If you were running a normal charging system you'd be absolutely correct about the load rating but the XS doesn't waste power as heat by shunting to ground to regulate the voltage. The voltage regulator works like a normal voltage regulator in almost any regular vehicle and it regulates the field voltage to reduce the output when the load is low and raise it when the load rises.

Good charging systems are rated for continuous output and are assembled to work at their rated loads. They will work indefinitely at their rated output. Unfortunately, the XS doesn't work that way. Like an Asian stereo amplifier it's overrated and lists its peak output instead of its continuous output.

It might, on a good day, put out 18 to 22 Amps but it's meant to taper off quickly as the battery charges back up to capacity. The bike itself doesn't normally require anywhere near 20 Amps and if you try to run it at its rated output the stator and the wires and connectors will eventually cook. It's not an instantaneous "What the heck was that?!" kind of flash and burn it's a slow cook, like a good tri-tip, ribs and a pulled pork roast. It may take while but the insulation on the wires hardens and glazes so they don't flex; the insulating varnish bakes off in the stator; connectors oxidize and the regulator/rectifier runs hot. Heat kills solid-state components and that's just the alternator/regulator/rectifier part of the charging system.

To save Yen, the main harness wires used in the XS are slightly less than sufficient to handle the normal current required to run the bike. They're not large enough to sustain full-load amps for more than a short period of time.

[...]

I've also never understood the "don't jump start your bike with a car because you'll fry it" thing, but that's another subject.

I don't get that one either and it sounds apocryphal. I think someone fried their bike and the car was running when it happened.

If the bike battery went flat because it has an internal short then hooking it up to something like a 600 CCA battery is probably not a good idea but the charging system can't supply anywhere near the instantaneous power of a decent starting battery.

Some new vehicles do have special instructions for jump starting them or using them to jump start another vehicle (like: "Don't do it!"). For those vehicles do whatever the owner's manual says because computer modules are spendy and labor is insane, especially if you void the warranty and have to pay for it out-of-pocket!


Regards,

Scott

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Psycho, and Jurgen,

IMHO and my personal experience, you CAN burn up a reg/rect unit with too much stress/draw on the charging system. I'm sure GEEZER, or some real Electrical GURU can explain what happens. BTW, Geezer's unit has a LIFETIME guarantee, so just send it back, and he'll fix/replace it!

Back many years ago I wanted some more visibility in my brake lights, so I got some extra trailer lights, with standard incandescent bulbs, along with some AUX driving lights, think they were only 35 watts ea, but a pair! It wasn't long until my bike wasn't charging anymore! Once I found out what had broken, and got it fixed with a replacement OEM unit, I removed the extra tail lights, and then only used the AUX lights sparingly. That Reg/Rect was still working just find many years later when I swapped it out for one of GEEZER's super duper units. His doesn't provide extra charging power than what the XS can provide, it just provides is sooner and at a higher rate sooner than it would otherwise do at a low/idle rpm, vs having to get up to 2500 rpm before it reaches max output.

The need/desire for more driving light, but limited by the XS's poor amp output capacity, is what drove me to do an almost complete LED replacement of all turn/tail/gauge lights. This can free up considerable amperage to then allow driving lights.

Lets add things up. 55 watts x 2 = 110 watts. Now, I divide it by 12, vs. the 14.5 max volts that the charging system generates. So...the driving lights need/draw at MAX...~9 amps.

Now, take a pair of running tail lights, 8 watts each. When you apply brakes, it jumps to 27 watts each. Turn signals also draw 27 watts in a pair.
The gauge lights are 3.4 watts ea...4 for both gauges, plus same for license plate x 2.

SO...converting the larger draw bulbs to LEDS can free up several AMPs to then be available for the AUX driving lights without necessarily overloading the charging system..reg/rect unit!

T.C.

[Geezer]

Running at full output for any length of time will tend to push weak parts to failure but that doesn't mean it was the cause of the weakness.

Geezer

[XS1100 Newbie]

If we could just find someone to re-design the winding of the alternator to not only be a higher amperage unit, but the continuous load could be handled, then Geezer could build a regulator to handle this, and walla, we could all change our wiring harness after it melts down.

[Geezer]

If we could just find someone to re-design the winding of the alternator to not only be a higher amperage unit, but the continuous load could be handled, then Geezer could build a regulator to handle this, and walla, we could all change our wiring harness after it melts down.

Buy me a lathe and a milling machine and I'll make one for you.

Actually I'm working on something like that but I don't want to talk to much about it because I don't want to get people excited about something that may be beyond my ability to produce... Would 45 to 60 amps be enough...

One thing for sure is that high amperage add on electrics should be powered by a relay directly off the solenoid rather than through the harness.

Geezer

[Larrym]

Real Tiger Vs Paper Tiger

psycoreefer,

I'll give the green light to your version of how the "charging" system works but I find it helpful to think of it a little differently.

First off, the "charging" system really only charges the battery after the initial loss/drain from the starter. (Usually that's a small loss and quickly put back in as the battery's designed to put out a high amp load for a brief period.) After that the charging system has done it's job for the day and can kick up it's heels really: no more to do. (We're disregarding the ignition system if only for the moment...)

If anything else is turned on (say....a headlight?) the battery would start to drain. Now the charging system wakes up and kicks in. But it's not really "charging the battery" anymore. It's sole function is to put out the amps/volts needed by the headlight to keep the battery from DISCHARGING. So in effect it's purpose has shifted towards supplying all the additional loads with power in an attempt to keep the battery from discharging: I see it as a "Discharging Prevention System". That keeps things straight in my boggled and aging mind.

I agree with 3Phase's "peak vs continuous" model too. If we use 20 amps as a "rule/guide" then the owner can turn on devices which use "X" amps and WWhile (While and Only While...) the total amps is equal to or less than 20, the "Discharging Prevention System" will keep the battery from going flat and ruining our day. Go One amp higher in loading and the clock starts ticking towards remembering where the kickstarter is stashed and using it to get home.

As far as "burning up components" that's an easy one but will likely spiral this thread into the guardrail: On Paper "ratings" and what happens in the real world. 20 amps is a "paper" beginning but fact is that each and every connection to and from the "Discharging Prevention System" and the actual load has a "loss" due to the mechanical connections: bullet connectors, pin connectors, crimps, switches, etc.

As a rule of thumb, a perfectly made mechanical connection (crimp) with a superbly done soldering has a 95% efficiency rating. Ok...a loss of 5% and we can live with that. But take a count of all the non-soldered crimps, pins, switches, etc, inline with the "loading device" (on both the positive and negative side...) back to the battery itself. 5% plus 5% plus 5% ad nauseum till you get to the actual number of "imperfect" breaks in the flow as seen through the eyes of an electron trying to get out there and do his thing.

Amazing that anything works at all, eh? The important thing about that 5% loss is that it isn't there at low loads. (Steeyupid math is involved...) But as the max current/load gets closer that loss gets to be a real issue. It becomes real and tangible: the connector gets warm or even hot. That "hot" causes more resistance. More resistance causes more heat. The vicious cycle continues and spirals upwards towards failure due to "Thermal Runaway."

So Geezer's rectifier is sitting there all good to go. But when the max current/output is required (To keep the battery from discharging...) all the 5% losses rear their ugly little heads. The rectifier tries even harder to keep the battery from discharging (bless its little heart) and raises the voltage/current even higher. But even Geezers rectifier can only do so much cause it along with everything else uses those little connectors for it's power in, it's controls in/out, and it's power out.

The wrong wire connection can go "Poof" and the rectifier is suddenly without a needed control voltage signal or a solid power output and goes into Overload/Max/Emergency power. (Fibrillation followed by Cardiac Arrest).

BeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeP. Total flatline. It's dead. Just like would happen if you were to pull the battery cable off of a running car while the alternator was working. Diodes blown. Output Zero.

Max output is only in the laboratory. In the real world I'd de-rate the bikes output at 25 to 30 percent less just as a safety margin.

[3Phase]

Running at full output for any length of time will tend to push weak parts to failure but that doesn't mean it was the cause of the weakness.

Geezer

Sure, Tony, just the weak parts like the entire undersized wiring system.
It's not designed for a continuous 20 amp load.

The Japanese use a metric wire system that has a size slightly smaller than AWG #14 and slightly larger than AWG #12. Would you like to guess which size is the largest size wire in the harness except for the battery and starter cables?

No, it's not the 2.5 slightly larger than #12 wire, it's the 1.5 less than #14 undersized wire.

Ampacities NEC

As the chart shows, the 1.5 wire is only rated for 15/17/20 amps.

Copper							
											
	AWG	Temperature rating [°C]	 					
 	kcmil	60	70	75	90	mm²	 				
	18	(10)	(11)	(12)	(14)						
		(11)	(13)	(14)	(16)	1,0					
	16	(13)	(15)	(16)	(18)						
		(15)	(17)	(17)	(20)	1,5					
	14	20	20	20	25						
		20	20	20	25	2,5					
	12	25	25	25	30						
		25	30	30	35	4,0					
	10	30	35	35	40

To summarize:

The three 1.5 white wires from the stator to the harness are barely within the 20 amp spec and are out of the 20 amp spec at the normal operating temperature of an air-cooled XS1100.

The 1.5 wires used in the main wiring starting at the alternator harness connector behind the fuse box up to the regulator/rectitfier over to the starter solenoid and the ignition switch, then on to the rest of the system are only good for 15 to 17 amps maximum, not 20 amps. 20 amps will cook 15/17 amp wire.

Moving right along! The stock Yamaha regulator/rectifier gets seriously hot at full load. I haven't measured the temperature but it's enough to sublimate water into steam.

Here are the standard semiconductor component temperature specs:

Commercial is 0° to +70°C
Industrial is -40° to +85°C
Military is -55° to +125°C

Which spec do you suppose Yamaha used for the regulator/rectifier components?


Regards.,

Scott

[Larrym]

Bells, Lights, and Buzzers. Oh My!!

Jeez Scott,

I thought I was the only one who saw these things as wired to the same standards as a Pachinko Machine:





I knew it and could live with it.