Soldering vs Crimping

[clcorbin]

Real world equals wet/damp equals solder.

Real world equals wet/damp equals adhesive heat shrink to seal them up...

[b.walker5]

The tin plating stops the formation of copper oxides on the terminal which can create a high resistance joint, overheating and imminent failure, which is one reason why the pvc insulation on the wire shouldn't be stripped back further than the end on the connector. From memory and not "googling" it the galvanic corrosion rate of tin on copper is very slow and appears quite low on the Anodic index. Copper oxide corrosion is a much bigger problem in an electrical context.

[Larrym]

Bees Wax! Thiabendazole!!

We ended up way off in left field

That's a sign of a really fun game, cy. I mean it's not like we're taking it so serious that everybody is wearing cleats.

I've been wandering around in right field wearing flip-flops, watching butterflies, and waiting for somebody to call out my name so I know its my turn to run wherever the ball dropped. Never was much good at paying attention to the ball/strike count anyways...

So back to those connectors. Ok. So they ain't alumineyum. They're not tin either. Copper? Sure I'll go along with that but am I any better off? They may be copper on the inside but each one is plated with something else:Tin. (No way to get it offa there either!! It's not like ya can hold it under the faucet for a while and wash it off like that silly coating they put on apples to make them look good.)

I'm right back to that "dissimilar metals" and corrosion again. Why did they have to plate the darned things in the first place? They were copper. That was perfect and they should'a stopped there. Copper wire plus copper connector equals no corrosion due to dissimilar metals.

That plating may protect the copper connectors from developing a nice green patina while they're waiting to be sold on the shelves for who-knows-how-long and may even help when one copper/tin plated male connector mates with the opposite copper/tin female connector. (No metal mismatch between the the individual genders and good for them!)

But as soon as I shove a copper wire in the end and crimp it the slow but inevitable countdown to "currentus minimus" starts caused by moisture/corrosion. That's what I have to deal with in my neck of the swamp way more often than a wire das-floppin' from a broken wire-to-crimp connection.

I worked in a controlled environment where the temperature, humidity, particulate count, and actual airflow was kept within a range suitable for the machines that did the work. No dramatic cycling of any of those factors and so the beasties purred like kittens without nary a care about what mean old Mr. Moisture and his pal Uncle Corrosion could do to those thousands of individual crimped wires and the end connectors.

I could park my XS in there. Maybe even ride it a few times if I bribed the Air Quality inspector. But I'd never get out of 3'rd gear.

Real world equals wet/damp equals solder.

[cywelchjr]

Your definition of electrical vs electronics still doesn't hold water!

Ok, do you like my later definition better? Its not really much different other than wording it differently. Remember the words typically, because even when you electronically switch a large current, it's almost always controlled by a very low (generally microamps) current low voltage signal. Also those high current high voltage signals are generally the LAST one in the circuit, as they are typically the output of the circuit.

But, that wasn't even the point of the discussion. We ended up way off in left field starting with a discussion about soldering vs crimping on our bikes.

[cywelchjr]

I understand what you're saying about there being a breaking point next to the solder. The solder makes the wire immoveable, and the wire still moves. At the junction of the two, is where it will break. That being said, if you were take a wire and clamp it, at the point where immoveable meets moveable, it is going to break there, just like any wire you bend back and forth at the same spot, clamped, crimped, or soldered.

Not quite the same. The solder makes the wire itself hard and unyielding, where the clamp still leaves the wire flexible. This can all be allowed for with proper tie off and clamping, but it's seldom done in automotive and motorcycle applications, and often isn't possible because there sometimes isn't a location appropriate to clamp it to. All milspec stuff I worked with, had the clamp and fastening points carefully designed to prevent stress on the wires, specifically because of that issue with soldering.

I think we are ALL getting off the point here, as the discussion was about crimping vs soldering on our bikes. I still contend that steve's point is valid, that with the poor quality of the connectors, unless your going to replace ALL the connections on the bike with gold plated or similar connections that it's a waste to solder, and the drawbacks in this application outweigh the advantages.

Here is a definition that I found concerning the issue that may help.

electronic [ɪlɛkˈtrɒnɪk ˌiːlɛk-]
adj
1. (Electronics) of, concerned with, using, or operated by devices in which electrons are conducted through a semiconductor, free space, or gas
2. (Electronics) of or concerned with electronics
3. (Physics / General Physics) of or concerned with electrons or an electron an electronic energy level in a molecule
4. (Electronics) involving or concerned with the representation, storage, or transmission of information by electronic systems electronic mail electronic shopping
electronically adv
Usage: Electronic is used to refer to equipment, such as television sets, computers, etc., in which the current is controlled by transistors, valves, and similar components and also to the components themselves. Electrical is used in a more general sense, often to refer to the use of electricity as a whole as opposed to other forms of energy: electrical engineering; an electrical appliance. Electric, in many cases used interchangeably with electrical, is often restricted to the description of particular devices or to concepts relating to the flow of current: electric fire; electric charge

[DenyP]

Your definition of electrical vs electronics still doesn't hold water!

Deny

[trbig]

I understand what you're saying about there being a breaking point next to the solder. The solder makes the wire immoveable, and the wire still moves. At the junction of the two, is where it will break. That being said, if you were take a wire and clamp it, at the point where immoveable meets moveable, it is going to break there, just like any wire you bend back and forth at the same spot, clamped, crimped, or soldered.


Tod

[cywelchjr]

Naw, that definition won't work. The "Electronics" I was refering to in my earlier posts was on equipment using thousands of volts and in some cases hundreds of amps.

I know you'll argue if I said the sky was blue, but you have to come up with something better to explain how I'm wrong. Also had a couple questions...

1. You explain that I'm wrong calling it an aircraft electrical system.. that it is correctly called aircraft ELECTRONICS, yet the MOS for the "electriconics" calls it "2A6X6 Aircraft Electrical And Environmental Systems Specialist"? Seems you need to write them and correct them.

2. If soldering is not a good choice and weakens wires, why would the military solder all their connections in the most vibration and G-Force prone conditions? Again, you need to write them and correct their errors.

Thanks ahead of time for clearing this all up for me.

No, I won't argue, although the sky is more aquamarine than blue. Seriously though.

Actually I would have to agree with you there. Normally though the difference between electronics and electrical is the voltage and current levels. That said, there are two cases where conductivity is more important than wire strength, and the wire strength issues can be handled with proper strain reliefs (which I'm sure those avionics systems have, I know all the systems (not avionics but mil-spec comm gear) I worked on did, and did indeed use soldered connections, and had some stuff that was high current and some that was high voltage, but not generally both at the same time).

Avionics though is a bit of an exception, as it marine electrical, both of them because of the environment. That said IIRC Nasa has had problems in the past with wires that were not properly braced breaking at the solder joint (well, right next to it) as the wire is indeed more likely to break adjacent to the solder joint in stranded wire (I've not seen this in solid wire but I don't think that's what we are talking about here are we?).

That said, for what we are talking about, Auto and Motorcycle connections, without proper strain relief and vibration protection of the wires, soldered connections are very often not the best way to go, and even when they are, they are usually overkill, since the actual connectors have far worse loss than a crimp connector.

All this said, I would contend that mil-spec, avionics and marine applications are somewhat unique, and cannot be compared to automotive type applications. That is to say, for the direction we are both coming from, both of us are largely correct. Both of us appear to have been trying to be 100% correct and I don't really think it's that clear cut.

[DenyP]

Ya, I didn't like that definition ether. It has holes you could float a carrier through. Radar, Sonar, Communications transmitters, X-ray machines, Laser and so forth.

Deny

[trbig]

Cy pretty much nailed it; electronics operate usually at milliamps levels (and very rarely beyond 2 amps), electrical is at higher levels.

Naw, that definition won't work. The "Electronics" I was refering to in my earlier posts was on equipment using thousands of volts and in some cases hundreds of amps.

I know you'll argue if I said the sky was blue, but you have to come up with something better to explain how I'm wrong. Also had a couple questions...

1. You explain that I'm wrong calling it an aircraft electrical system.. that it is correctly called aircraft ELECTRONICS, yet the MOS for the "electriconics" calls it "2A6X6 Aircraft Electrical And Environmental Systems Specialist"? Seems you need to write them and correct them.

2. If soldering is not a good choice and weakens wires, why would the military solder all their connections in the most vibration and G-Force prone conditions? Again, you need to write them and correct their errors.

Thanks ahead of time for clearing this all up for me.

Tod

[randy]

I got your splice right here....

Ok, here's my favorite splice photo. I found this during my demolition of my basement in PA. It's not the worst thing I found, either. After I disconnected everything, I had a live 1900 box. The PO had used one of the ground wires as a return from another circuit. Took me awhile to figure out why that 1900 box was live! What a maroon! I just hope he doesn't reproduce Find THIS in your NFPA70!!

[b.walker5]

The connectors pictured above are made out of aluminum. The wire is made out of copper.

Sorry Larry but if you get your side cutters and cut those things in half I'm pretty sure you'll find Tin Plated Copper.

[crazy steve]

Another case of a good product with a bad name and/or banned because of incompetent/lazy/cheap installation practices. The actual problem wasn't the aluminum wire, it was the crappy outlets with push in connections that should never have been used with aluminum. Poor connection = heat. Heat = lots of expansion in the aluminum. Lot's of expansion = stretched spring connectors. Stretched spring connectors = poor connection. And the cycle continues until something catches on fire or melts.

They couldn't prevent "installers" from using aluminum wire in those push in connectors, but they COULD prevent the manufacturers' from MAKING aluminum wire in sizes that could be used with those types of connectors, so, away went aluminum wire.

Of course, even with screw connection, improperly installed aluminum wire will have more issues with thermal expansion and corrosion than copper will, so it's probably best that it is gone.

That was certainly part of it, but it is much touchier about install even so. The BIG problem was mobile homes; even with a good initial install, by the time the mobile was hauled to the site and set up, all the connections had been 'flexed' enough from the transportation movement that problems showed up later. And the mobile builders (who used aluminum because it was cheaper) also used cheap Zinsco panels/breakers. These were notorious for not tripping under anything but a dead short (and sometimes not even then; the joke was 'a 20 amp breaker protected by a #12 wire...), so if you only had a slight overload, you got a 60' toaster oven.

The feds still won't allow it on their jobs, and even a lot of the local govts don't like it. But put in right it'll work just fine....

'78E original owner

[clcorbin]

Aluminum wire is still commonly used in the industry, but after burning up a bunch of mobile homes in the early 70s, they restricted it to #6 stranded and larger sizes and put in specific directions for use. The aluminum house 'rope' is looong gone...

Another case of a good product with a bad name and/or banned because of incompetent/lazy/cheap installation practices. The actual problem wasn't the aluminum wire, it was the crappy outlets with push in connections that should never have been used with aluminum. Poor connection = heat. Heat = lots of expansion in the aluminum. Lot's of expansion = stretched spring connectors. Stretched spring connectors = poor connection. And the cycle continues until something catches on fire or melts.

They couldn't prevent "installers" from using aluminum wire in those push in connectors, but they COULD prevent the manufacturers' from MAKING aluminum wire in sizes that could be used with those types of connectors, so, away went aluminum wire.

Of course, even with screw connection, improperly installed aluminum wire will have more issues with thermal expansion and corrosion than copper will, so it's probably best that it is gone.

[crazy steve]

The connectors pictured above are made out of aluminum. The wire is made out of copper.

First off, I doubt they're aluminum. In larger sizes (#8 and larger) you'll find aluminum-bodied connectors, but I've never seen any in smaller sizes. Why are they silver? Tin plating. This is commonly applied to nearly all crimp connectors for both as a corrosion inhibitor, and also eliminates any dissimilar metal issues. If you can solder to it, it's not aluminum.

Also look at it's rating; if rated for copper wire, it will have 'CU' on it somewhere if it's UL-approved, AL if it's good for aluminum wire, and AL-CU if it's rated for both. Aluminum wire is still commonly used in the industry, but after burning up a bunch of mobile homes in the early 70s, they restricted it to #6 stranded and larger sizes and put in specific directions for use. The aluminum house 'rope' is looong gone...

'78E original owner