Super angry, darn local shop!

[prometheus578]

"Hard to say what went on there, Fred."

Tires, sitting unmounted... the bead area tends to curl inward.
What I mean is the tire tends to curl and close up.
So, you've got a rim that 4 inches wide, and you're trying to mount a tire that's collapsed to maybe a two inch opening.
Yes, you can seat the bottom side... but how does one get the tire to expand so that the upper side moves up that 2 inches so the bead area hits the rim?
That's the fun part.
Starting fluid?
Tighten a cargo strap around the tread to squeeze the tire open?
Use an inner tube?

I believe it was GNEPIG, years ago, stated, "Inflate an inner tube inside the tire, place the tire out in the sun for a few hours. It will soften and sometimes revert back to it's normal shape. Take it back inside and try to remount it.

[psycoreefer]

I've mounted snow tires on my truck once, and so I can understand what Prometheus is saying about using a tube to make the tire hold air so that it can be forced out, but.... they wanted to charge me for the tube and I politely refused to pay for it, I understand that it cost them but I shouldn't have been charged extra for the trouble they had, if they say it costs $30 to mount a tire thats what it should cost unless there is something wrong with my rim, and there isn't.

As for not shopping there I don't think I'll do that. I've thought about it and: They did get the tire out on the bead without a hassle, they didn't make me pay for the tube, and they are the only shop around that charges reasonable prices for parts. Plus they seem like good guys, friendly and have always helped me to get the right parts for my other bike. However I don't think I'll be using their Mechanics services again.

No word from Dunlop yet....Maybe when I get that I'll print it out and take it in, we all have to learn sometime.

[fredintoon]

Hi Pro,
what I see here is incompetence raised to an artform.
A proper tire shop should have the ability to install a tubeless tire without having to shove a tube in it. Using a tube to widen a tire before installation is a neat trick. Leaving one in there is a retrograde step. Even if Brian didn't pay for the tube he's still stuck with it and the associated reduction in speed rating, propensity for sudden catastrophic air loss when punctured and inability to be temporarily fixed with a can of tire goop.

[prometheus578]

I was gonna reply sooner...

...but opted for breakfast instead... Then decided to reread this whole thread.
Now, someone correct me iff'in I'm a wrong, here.
The bike in question is a '79 Special. And I know that there was a change during some odd year, but my '79 Standard... has "TUBE" rims, not tubeless. (I do have a '79 Special, but it's parked behind the garage, encrusted with thorny blackberry bushes and I'm sitting here drinking coffee, wearing my fuzzy bunnie slippers and I'm not about to go outside to look at it's rims)
Usually, the Specials had Tubeless rims. Most of my bikes don't have their original year's rims, might Psychoreefer's be the same?
Now then just suppose...

Also talked to the mechanic on the phone and found out he "had to put a tube in the front because it wouldn't seat on the bead without the tube."

What the mechanic meant was.. The rim is not marked "Suitable for Tubeless Tires" so he put a tube in, as is required. The statement then makes sense.
I say, that Psychoreefer check the spokes on the rim to see if they have the above statement stamped on them. This may clear things up a little.
Then again, maybe it won't... And I'll have to find another minor point to be arguementative over.

[bigb9582]

i got the 404's on my 79 standard. both tires are tubed and i run them at 40 psi with no problems.

btw the rear was easy to seat but the front was a pain. so i soaped it up good and put 50 psi in it and left it sit. checked it a 1/2hr later and the bead was fully seated.

we just put a rear tire on my buddys nighthawk and it wouldnt seat on eather side of the tire fully, no help from letting it sit with higher pressure in it. so he put 30psi in it and bounced the tire up and down for 20mins and then the bead finnaly seated on both sides.

[psycoreefer]

From Dunlop:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding the proper inflation
pressures for the Dunlop D404 motorcycle tires fitted to your '79 Yamaha XS
1100. For the sizes of 100/90-19 front and 130/90-16 rear, we suggest
inflating your tires to 30 psi front and 32 psi rear.

Also...
The front does say "Suitable for Tubeless Tires", I pointed it out to the guy that was ringing me up when I refused to pay for the front tube. The rear does need a tube and I happily payed for that one.

[Jerry]

The Dunlop site, under fitment guide, does not list the D404 as a recommneded tire for the XS or XJ 1100. They do list the GT501 and Elite 3 series.

For both of those lines, recommended tire pressure is 30 front and 32 rear.

Front Rim Size: 1.85x19 | Rear Rim Size: 3.00x16

Recommended Front Tire:
Tire : GT501 | Size : 100/90-19 | PSI/Loaded : 30

Recommended Rear Tire:
Tire : GT501 | Size : 130/90B16 | PSI Rear/Loaded : 32

Alternative Front Tire:
Tire : Elite 3 | Size : MM90-19 | PSI/Loaded : 30

Alternative Rear Tire:
Tire : Elite 3 | Size : MT90B16 | PSI Rear/Loaded : 32

I would guess the specs for the D404 are similar.

Difference between the Dunlop lines are in load carrying capacity.
Front tires:
D404 100/90-19 507 lbs @ 41psi
GT501 100/90-19 505 lbs @ 42psi
Elite 3 MM90-19 570 lbs @ 40 psi

Rear tires:
D404 130/90-16 677 lbs @ 41 psi
GT501 130/90B16 675 lbs @ 42 psi
Elite 3 MT90B16 830 lbs @ 40 psi

Also from the Dunlop site FAQ:
Check your pressures daily when you are on a trip and remember that every 4 psi of inflation air lost is approximately equivalent to losing 60 or 70 pounds of load carrying capacity. That means that if your tire pressure is 36 psi instead of 40 psi, then you need to take 60 or 70 pounds of load off the motorcycle

So, what does this mean? If the above statement is correct, and you run a D404 (rear) at 32 psi, you are down 9 psi from max load capacity, or a loss of around 120 - 140 lbs carrying capacity. You drop from 677 pounds max down to 537. Given the bike weighes 560 pounds plus rider, and the bulk of that weight is on the rear tire, you may be getting very close to an overloaded condition at 32 psi.

(Anyone ever put a bathroom scale under their bike's front end? Would be interesting to calculate the actual weight distribution!)

Starting with the Elite 3 (830 at 40 psi) and drop it 8 lbs, you still get a load capacity of 690 lbs, or 143 lbs more than the D404. This gives more of a margin for loading or playing with tire pressure to get a better ride.

Again, I am a heavy guy and run a full fairing and saddlebags. In order to avoind underinflation and overloading I run higher tire pressures in Elite 3 tires. YMMV. However, I strongly recommend going with more pressure rather than less, particularly if you go with the GT 501 or D404 series as their weight capacities are much lower to begin with.

If you are a lightweight guy (or gal) and run a naked bike then you may not need the load capacity of an Elite 3 or higher tire pressures in a D404 or GT 501. The point here is to have the information you need to make a informed decision based on your weight, equipment, and riding style, as well as your tolerance of risk factors.

[prometheus578]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Psychoreefer... I can now move on with my day.
Good info, Jerry.
You not heavy... just big-boned.
If you were heavy, you'd need TWO bathroom scales... which is what you'd need to weigh the bike accurately.
For to put a bathroom scale only under the front tire would shift some of the weight to the rear tire.

[yadada]

Putting your front tire on a bathroom scale squishes the scale. Then you have to take it apart and bend all the peices back straight again. Trust me I know.

If you have to do it, try putting some plywood on the scale first to spread out the load, maybe that will keep you're scale from getting squished, but I'm not positive on that.

I used hay baling twine around the outside of the tire and twisted it tight with a screw driver to get the beads to squish out so the air would start to seat the bead. Still haven't thought of a way to use duct tape yet. After that the Ru-glyde did it's job.

[snowdog51]

air

if a person ran 40lb in the front you couldn't stand to ride more than a half hour it would be so harsh.
as ever bill