trans headache

[AlanB]

Hi Madmax,

if you are prepared to get your hands dirty, the dremel fix HAS to be the most cost-effective. It will cost some time and a handful of gaskets- nothing else!

Many members on here have tackled this sucessfully as a first major piece of work, with nothing more than servicing attempted before; There is more good help on here than you would believe.

You may also have trouble finding a shop prepared to do major work on such an old bike; It will probably be older than most of the mechanics!LOL!

If you are paying by the hour at a shop, There will probably not be too much difference between the price with new parts and the price with repaired parts; The mechanics time to fix your gears will be close to the price of new parts, but I bet the shop will not guarantee the job without the new bits!

Cost for the gearbox job should be four or five hours labour, plus the bits you need; work it out for yourself! ....You may have to educate them about the fact that this fix can be done through the sump; otherwise they will quote for a complete motor strip and build.

Best of luck with the gearbox!

The motor work is another matter; Maxi's motor was a long-term development, with plenty of cash, and plenty of good-quality dyno time, and yet (I think!) he still did not reach the magic figure! To be sure of clearing the 100 BHP barrier at the wheel, I would guess that you will need either mega compression, modern carbs, or a conversion to chain drive.

I have an internally stock SG with Suzuki "Slingshot" carbs on it. (bike is "Miss January" in the XS calendar?) They have been discussed on here a great deal, and some say they cannot make any difference.......... but the Dyno sheets have been posted on the site; stock was around 70 horse, after the work the bike made over 90 BHP. We had around 95 during development, but traded peak power for a stronger midrange......I am happy. If a search does not bring up what you need, PM me; I have been through this so often that I am reluctant to repost it all again.

Have fun with your tuning!!

AlanB

[madmax-im]

Originally posted by AlanB
Hi Madmax,

if you are prepared to get your hands dirty, the dremel fix HAS to be the most cost-effective. It will cost some time and a handful of gaskets- nothing else!

Many members on here have tackled this sucessfully as a first major piece of work, with nothing more than servicing attempted before; There is more good help on here than you would believe.

You may also have trouble finding a shop prepared to do major work on such an old bike; It will probably be older than most of the mechanics!LOL!

If you are paying by the hour at a shop, There will probably not be too much difference between the price with new parts and the price with repaired parts; The mechanics time to fix your gears will be close to the price of new parts, but I bet the shop will not guarantee the job without the new bits!

Cost for the gearbox job should be four or five hours labour, plus the bits you need; work it out for yourself! ....You may have to educate them about the fact that this fix can be done through the sump; otherwise they will quote for a complete motor strip and build.

Best of luck with the gearbox!

The motor work is another matter; Maxi's motor was a long-term development, with plenty of cash, and plenty of good-quality dyno time, and yet (I think!) he still did not reach the magic figure! To be sure of clearing the 100 BHP barrier at the wheel, I would guess that you will need either mega compression, modern carbs, or a conversion to chain drive.

I have an internally stock SG with Suzuki "Slingshot" carbs on it. (bike is "Miss January" in the XS calendar?) They have been discussed on here a great deal, and some say they cannot make any difference.......... but the Dyno sheets have been posted on the site; stock was around 70 horse, after the work the bike made over 90 BHP. We had around 95 during development, but traded peak power for a stronger midrange......I am happy. If a search does not bring up what you need, PM me; I have been through this so often that I am reluctant to repost it all again.

Have fun with your tuning!!

AlanB

AlanB:as far as the dremel fix its sure is worth trying ...if all else fails then i could opt to spend later to replace everything...as for not being able to break the 100 hp barrier with Zilla...I know why...you say 3 likely scenarios ...mega compression,modern carbs,or chain drive...well chain drive conversion is out...my carbs are STGlll with 4 k+ns'so that leave s MEGA Compression...bingo...Zilla's compression ratio was raised with the big bore kit to something on the order of 9.2:1 or something to that effect..iI am not proficient in the terminology so forgive me if thats an inaccurate number...however it is a fact that Zilla's compression ratio fell short of 10:1.The reason for this is because the '82 XJ1100 engine uses larger pistons and heads than the earlier XS11's use.Thus the kit that was ordered from Wiseco for 1196cc piston kit etc was in fact better suited for the earlier bikes and not for the '82...as a result ...there were more than enough ponies left on the table that could have put Zilla over the top and in triple digit hp land.The solution was found ...after the fact that Wiseco would cut a custom cut profile for the XJ's late model pistons and heads....cost would make the kit $100 more expensive.I dont believe anyone has actually ordered this custom cut profile as Wiseco says they would need a set of these late model pistons and heads.Cody thinks i might just be the first person to go this route.As for the slow process of engineering and developement ..I would say that this process has been tweaked a bit since Cody di it and a great deal of credit id due to him and Bobby Pugh as well.So the short of it is yes with the same person that did Zilla and some variations as mentioned above Madmax will indeed break the 100hp barrier. BTW I forgot to mention that Zill has 96.2hp@8500 rpms' and 68 ftlbs@6000 rpms'....damn close

[TopCatGr58]

Hey MadMax,

Sorry I'm getting back to this thread a bit late...had to attend my great nephew's 1st B'day party at Chuckee Cheeses, and Alan has posted some good points.

The Dremmel/die grinder technique is the cheapest way to go, and I did mine 7 years ago, but only about 6K miles ago....I don't ride as often since I don't want to put lots of wear on my little big bore kit, but I have done wheelies, and run the 1/4 mile strip several times, etc., run the twisties in 2nd gear from 3k to 7.5k rpm without any hesistation or skipping whatsoever!!!

Now, as for the big bore kit not giving the rated compression, this is where I respectfully disagreed with Cody/Maximan on this point with regards to the later model engine. I have an 81 and put the 1179 kit in it. After my breakin period of 500-1000 miles, I did a COLD compression test, and found 180-185psi across all 4 cylinders, with stock carbs, cams, just 4-1 pipes. Stock comp is supposed to be 142 + 14psi at sea level...which is where I'm at, and so 180 is considerably higher than 156. Stock ratio for the 81 was 9.0:1, so with my increased compression levels....and I'm sure it was not due to carbon buildup....I feel that the bike did obtain a level close to the 10~10.25:1 advertised ratio for the big bore kit Wiseco states!!!!
I did not have the head milled, just lapped the valves and seats, and used the COMETIC supplied graphite head gasket with the kit! I'm surprised that Wiseco agreed to redesign the pistons for the later model engines!?

Dan Hodges and several others much more knowledgable about internal engine mods like port and polishing would be the folks you would want to hear from as to their opinions on whether these types of mods are really useful or not with just stock cams and without turbo or supercharger type flow!?

Now as for Alan's suggestion of modern carbs....I am tending to agree and can see their expected benefit. Look at what fuel injection does, so any better control/atomization of the fuel/air mixture should provide a more controlled flow and would enhance the performance of this engine! Also, you might want to ask with the use of newer carbs, whether it might be better to BLOCK OFF the YICS ports in the head vs. leaving them in place, would probably make synching of the carbs easier as well. The YICS seems to be more of an emissions control change vs. a performance change, trying to even out the vacuum pull and pulses going to the carbs, and allowing the fuel/air mists to blend in the chamber before going into the cylinder, allowing for less than precise carb tuning!?!?

And back to your earlier reply, the engine doesn't usually go totally out of gear, but will skip or jerk for a split second while under hard throttlle. But if it's just truly slipping, like the engine revs higher but the bike doesn't feel like it's moving faster, then it could be merely clutch slippage, several things can help this, new frictions, HD springs, and even an extra steel plate which act like shims under the springs, but safer and less likely to break the pressure plate stalks vs. trying to shim the springs!

I'll check the online parts site for price quotes for the 4 gears and get back to you! HTH??
T.C.

[TopCatGr58]

All 4 Gear wheels and prices

Below are the part #'s and prices from www.cycle-parts.com, you may find cheaper prices from Zanottimotors?

2H7-17211-00-00 GEAR,1ST WHEEL $119.14

2H7-17241-00-00 GEAR,4TH WHEEL $116.50

2H7-17221-00-00 GEAR,2ND WHEEL $93.06

2H7-17251-00-00 GEAR,5TH WHEEL $110.47

Also, you might look into getting some high output ignition coils vs. the OEM ones, like the ones that MikesXS offers, in the tech tip I posted about this type of mod!
T.C.

[stoked]

Originally posted by madmax-im
Also the slippage is just that ...it never comes out of gear...So based on that...what do you think I need to fix this?

This sounds more like clutch slippage. Don't the bikes that have the worn gear issues come out of gear? Maybe you should try throwing on some new springs first and see if your issue goes away. That's about 15 bucks and 40 minutes of your time.

[madmax-im]

ok I need to clarify the symptoms Madmax is displaying...I call this slipping but it really is skipping out of the gear under hard acceleration and the bike feels like its jumping forward,,all symptoms are happening in first gear only.I know the clutch is good cuz it was rebuilt last spring with new springs too.Alan...your point abt more modern carbs is welcomed and my mind is open to this.It actually makes sense to me.I will be discussing this point with the engine guy....TC...Thankyou for providing me the pricing information and the suppliers as well.This is not nearly as prohibitive as i was lead to believe.I will definitely be talking with Bobby abt this...I now feel that I should buy all the parts I need to do this upgrade to the engine...problem is...since I am no mechanic I dont know all the various parts i would need.I would need a comprehensive list of all the various parts...It is also my feeling that since I am going for HP, even though the engine will be tuned for low and midrange grunt in the powerband,I would rather replace all the gears with new ones and be done with it.If my budget was really tight,I'd consider the dremel fix..however now that i know how much it would truly cost...its within the budget to get new ones.

[clint]

what is better bike on center stand or bike on its back doing the gear fix??

[clint]

i had a tip on the 2nd gear fix that involved turning the bike over anyone have a link to that thanks

[clint]

well i found the link the bike is on its back the cover is off and i can see the gears just came in to warm up eat a bite then its back to the garage to remove the gears

[clint]

i have the gears out and it was a pain in the butt i wonder if i bumped it out of 4th if so how could i find out??

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Madmax,

While I was searching the prices, I mistakingly first put in the part #'s for some of the pinion gears, and they came up as discontinued, so IF the mech you're working with was suggesting replacing the pinions gears as well as the Countershaft Gear Wheels, then you wouldn't be able to get new ones anyways! But all of the countershaft gear wheels are available, and if it's happening in 1st, then you'll need the 1st/4th gear pair, but as has been discussed, if 2nd is slightly symptomatic, then you'll need 2nd/5th pair as well!

Clint, it's been many years since I've done this job, but yes, it's a tight fit for the countershaft and gear assembly pulling it out, slightly turning the rear wheel can sometimes help wiggle the gears to allow them to separate. There's another tech tip that shows photos of the position of the shift forks and drum when it is in each gear position, may help. I think you can put the shift lever and shift pawl back on and actuate the shift lever into the up shifting process to verify if you can turn the shift drum only one more pin's rotation.
T.C.

[madmax-im]

Thanks TC...so what are the actual part #'s for the gears?I have pretty much figured on just replacing both gearsets with factory backcut gears...no mention of replacing the pinion gears...so I think we are good there..when I go to the webites you gave me i will no doubt find the part #s'. Aside from the gears what else would I need to have in the way of parts? I know there is something else...I better go back and reread the thread..LOL Thanks again TC..Happy New Year too!

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Bennie,

On the second page where I posted the prices, I included the actual part #'s for the gear wheels!

There is a technique about swapping a washer from one side of the gear to the other, OR adding an extra washer which is the problem since it's not available from Yamaha. HOWEVER IIRC, Tod/Trbig puchased a bunch of washers very close to the OEM size from McMaster-Carr for when he did his tranny fix, and so has some extras to sell, perhaps he'll chime in on whether it fit okay without any modification?? And then again, others debate whether the washer swap is really needed especially with the use of the newer backcut gears!?

Still wonder why your mechanic said it would cost $4-5K to repair/replace all 4 gears when they are on the same shaft, and like Ray said, they shouldn't have to be splitting the cases, just going in thru the tranny pan for the gears, and just the heads/jugs off for the pistons and headwork!!!
T.C.

[madmax-im]

I'll get to the heart of the matter

TC...Thanks for the clarification...I went to cylcle-parts.com and got the same #'s...As for the info that was given to me from the gentleman in OK...I will be emailing him in the next day or so...I now have to figure out if he has a credibility problem or what?Perhaps..well I would rather not discuss this publicly without all the having all the facts first...and even then I want to be discreet abt it.So if there are any further points to be made abt this ..pls PM me...TYVM!At this point I want to apologize to the original poster here as i took over this thread and he seemed to fall by the wayside a bit...So Clint just to let you know..I have a tendancy to talk too much..LOL...hope your dremel fix is going well...keep us posted...

[clint]

no no dont worry about me i am absorbing all the xs info i can. I work at a shop and all i get to work on is busa, zx14, R1, and gsxr so this is a great source for me. the tranny is going well gears are out and i am going to have them back cut by a machinist friend that owes me.