Wanna Swap Shims?

[LoserShoes]

To check for chain wear, try to lift the chain off the sprocket halfway between where the chain enters and exits the sprocket. If you can lift it more then a eighth inch or so it's worn out. Worn chains wear out sprockets, worn sprockets let worn chains jump teeth, jumped teeth on a cam sprocket puts your engine out to lunch.

Steve

[TopCatGr58]

All this talk about cutting links out of TIMING chains is MUTE. The chains are set with specific number of links for specific distance, so that the turning ratios of the cams match the ratio of the crank. IF you were to remove a link, it would go out of time with 1 revolution..and at more out of time with each revolution....crunch, crunch. The chains are available from PNM for ~$35.00, and as has been stated you DON'T need to split the cases to replace one, so if it's worn...replace it!

[trbig]

Well... this may be an expensive one for the books. I got my cams back on with my old cam chain... was just going to check the spacer clearance. Followed the book..lined the cam dots up.. installed the gears.. I did find one exception to the book. It says to turn the crank from the "T" to the "C" then use your cam chain adjuster.... my chain is so stretched, it would jump over the cam gears if I didn't get some presure on it first.... then roll it over to the "C" then tighten the adjuster set screw.
Well... then it tells you to turn the crank at least one full revolution, turn it back to the "T" then check your dots on your cams to be lined up with the bearing caps. I didn't really feel any resistance at all doing this... no plugs in or anything... and while I was concentrating on the crank marks... I failed to notice that the cams WERE NOT MOVING!!! My cam chain had slid beside the cam gear and was just riding the cam. Got it back on, got the timing right, went to check the gaps between the shims and the cam... and the gap had goten huge... measured a .030-.035mm. I scratched my head... got a gut feeling.... checked my compression... ZERO!!! Guess I bent me some valves boys an girls. Now while I sit here cooling off with my Crown an Coke.... my game plan is to tear the head off and swap it with the one from my spare motor...... but that can wait till I have had a few of these drinks. SIGH....
CHEERS ANYWAY!!!!!

[trbig]

Did I mention that my frikkin brother in law came over tonight too????? LMAO... Gotta be his fault right??

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Tod,

Had you seen this thread, you might find it amusing if not helpful!?
MartyA's Cam Chain Hell!
T.C.

[trbig]

LOL.. Yeah TC... I read that earlier... I figure that's what Jinxed me! I just can't believe I did that... still sitting here shaking my head. Oh well... school of hard knocks... you gotta pay for your learning one way or another I guess. Anybody need an 8 valved, big A$$ paper weight?
The way they have you position the cams for installation... I am thinking maybe only cyl 1 & 4 affected... well.. 1 and 4 intake... prolly 2 & 3 exhaust. We'll see after I throw it across the garage a couple times tomorrow!

[prometheus578]

Oh geez... here he goes again!

Sorry T.C., but you know how I get at times.
My question concerns the following statement:
QUOTE]All this talk about cutting links out of TIMING chains is MUTE. The chains are set with specific number of links for specific distance, so that the turning ratios of the cams match the ratio of the crank. IF you were to remove a link, it would go out of time with 1 revolution..and at more out of time with each revolution....crunch, crunch[/QUOTE]
I may be deaf and dumb, but I'm not mute!
If I may refer you to the following artistically rendered drawings, not only for your opinion on my theory, but for your critique of my artistic talents and styling.
[IMG][/IMG] The number of links needed in a chain is determined by the length of one link in relation to the distance that needs to be covered. With the tensioner acting as a "variable idler" (I've been called that before!) to keep the chain taut, the number of links could be infinate.
Chains stretch to some degree. But removing one link may leave the chain too tight to be placed back on, so the point may well indeed, be moot.
As always, all are free to join in and point out the flaws in my logic. (This is how I learn things)

[trbig]

I tend to agree. I didn't want to argue, but the number of links in a chain are irrevelent. You could throw another gear on it somewhere to run another doo-hickey... add 100 more links, and it would do the same job. None of the gears are timed TO THE CHAIN. It would be just like your old bicycle chain. If it stretched too much, and you couldn't move your back tire back any more to tighten it, you took a couple links out and good as new. The chain is simply a tool to transfer power from one gear to the next. You could add 3 links.. take away 3, as long as you had a way to keep tension on it doing it's job of pulling your gears.
Again, this is a moot point. I am replacing the chain. I had just heard that the cam chains don't really wear out... just stretch. I was just wondering if anyone had ever tried it. I know a 35 dollar chain is alot less expensive than any of the gears it's running on..... unless you go bending valves like some idiots.... lol.
When I swap this head, is a ring compressor NEEDED?? I used to work on my dirt bike.. rebuilt alot, and never used one. I just squeezed the rings together and carefully worked it into the jug, but that was just 1 cylinder. Any tricks of the trade out there?
Thanks guys.

[LoserShoes]

If you take off just the head, the jugs stay in place, no need to mess with the rings.

Steve

[mro]

Hi prometheus578,

Think your right, and don't think you can remove a link (chain too short then)

btw

What model etch-a-sketch you got?


mro

[prometheus578]

I don't argue

I didn't want to argue

I question, in order to get a better understanding of things. Arguements are emotional in nature, and as we all here are somewhat mechanically minded, we question physics, propose theories, and search for truths.
T.C. has set me straight on numerous occasions, most notably the "Valve job causing rings to leak more" controvercy. I would have to check, but think it again was he that kicked my ass during the "Why set the timing at "C" when doing chain tension". (and if it wasn't T.C., no matter. I always bow to superior intellect)
I question... to learn. To learn... is to understand.

What model etch-a-sketch you got?

Windows 95 version. Drawing those circles was hell!

[pggg]

If you're stuck in the boondocks and you want to put on an endless chain, here's how ya do it. Your new camchain should have 128 links with a 5/16"(8mm) pitch. Last thing in the world you wanna do is split the damn cases. BTW, you can only remove 2 links not 1. Anyway, chances are you won't have a joiner link. With your new chain, carefully skim off the burrs on the pins of one link. Throw away 1/2 the link but keep the sideplate.

With your OLD chain, carefully hacksaw off a sideplate without touching the pins. Takes a few cuts. Throw away the mangled sideplate. CAREFULLY skim the remaining good pins' burred ends to diameter. You then have a joiner link that the fist sideplate will fit on to. Slip chain round crank. Join chain ends back together with the fantastic new joiner link. Use an axehead as an anvil and CAREFULLY re-burr the pins. Done.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Prom, and Tod, and others,

I now bow to the superior intellect presented above!!! Is it too late to say "DOH" I had been to the dentist and was still recovering from my 2 novacaine injections....yeah, that's the reason why my "reasoner" wasn't functioning properly!!!

I now see it's both a combination of the tension side of the chain between the crank and cams, and between each cam as an important part of keeping in time, but it's really also the number of teeth in the cam sprockets vs. the crank sprockets that controls the actual rotation ratios of the cams to the crank for a specified amount of chain travel. My apologies for my arrogance, and perhaps it should be me that stays MUTE until I'm sure of my info!?

But I'm a helluva whiz with MS paint and drawing circles! Prom, you did know there is a circle tool in MS paint, and that once you had the first diagram drawn, you could have used the Edit command to COPY and then Paste identical copies of the main drawing and then just vary/edit the "Slack" side of the drawings?? Of course you knew that!!

Now where's that MUTE BUTTON??!!

[prometheus578]

once you had the first diagram drawn, you could have used the Edit command to COPY and then Paste identical copies of the main drawing and then just vary/edit the "Slack" side of the drawings?? Of course you knew that!!

Snide, very snide! Haahah.
No... it was just that I have a Honda dirtbike in the shop that had too much slack in the chain, jumped, and took out a valve. In my 'slack' time, I was trying to figure out how, if it was mine, how I could cheaply remedy the situation. (had already tried taking the side cover off and manually hyper-extending the tensioner, but there was still too much slack. (Just wondered to myself also about removing a link, but removing a link just shortens the chain, doesn't remedy the slack between rollers, etc).
I've got a lot of time in that bike, but will only bill for two hours. (divorced mom with a dirtbike racin' son) I told her that this is "Mechanic Appreciation Month", and that instead of paying the bill, she could just take a mechanic of her choice out for a Mexican dinner. She (being a massage therapist), countered with an offer of several sessions of her soothing touch.
What to do? Having her touch me nekkid carcass would raise my heart rate(and other things), and the Mexican food might shoot up my cholesterol. Neither would be good things... (My angioplasty last Thursday trumps your two novacaine shots, T.C)
I detected no trace of arrogance. If I remember my Socrates correctly, a forum is a place for discussion and the open debate of ideas.
Note to Maximan!

!!! I believe some Zukis use a 29.5

: I had heard of them, but till today had never seen one. Had to run to Suzuki this morn to swap out some of those damned 29.5mm shims

[trbig]

Well.... finally got the head off last night. The head was easy enough to remove.... but what a pain in the arse to get to that point. Everything has been bolted up solid for 23 years... every bolt screamed at me along the way. I need to do some searchin'.. there has GOT to be an easier way to get those carbs in and out.
I can't really tell just by looking at the head and valves, but by looking at the pistons with the smashed carbon and shiny spots showing in the valve depressions on all of them (Intake and exhaust)... I think I may have been just lucky enough to have bent EVERY FRIKKIN VALVE somehow. I don't know how since the cams didn't move... was thinking 2 intake 2 exhaust. But again... mute point. If I was going to replace 4 valves, I would have replaced all 8. 'Cause everyone knows HALF a head job isn't worth spit!! lol.
Was thinking about getting the tools to lap and grind this thing myself. Not trying to be a tight a$$... just would like to learn how. The book shows it. But... am I better off just taking it to someone who does them alot? I am in no rush.... unless I bend the crap outta these valves in this other head too! lol.
Tod