help with head removal?

[knohbody]

i've been working on the old beast, now that i'm out of school. i got a new (to me) cylinder head... anyway i was trying to remove the old one. i was following the clymers manual for removal, but when i was rotating the engine, the cam chain got stuck. it's a 78 xs11 standard. please please please help! anyone who helps will recieve my eternal gratitude.
-james

[skids]

Re: help with head removal?

If you are replacing the head, just remove the cams. Then, you won't be forcing a valve against a piston crown. You may need some of those valves to put in your replacement head unless it has been refurbished entirely. You certainly do not want to damage a piston or other component. Think about a new cam chain while you are performing the surgery!

Originally posted by knohbody
i've been working on the old beast, now that i'm out of school. i got a new (to me) cylinder head... anyway i was trying to remove the old one. i was following the clymers manual for removal, but when i was rotating the engine, the cam chain got stuck. it's a 78 xs11 standard. please please please help! anyone who helps will recieve my eternal gratitude.
-james

[John]

What Skids said, plus, be careful it doesn't drop into the crankcase. Stuff a rag in the cam chain cavity and that will help to hold it in place, or you can tie it off to the frame.

[TopCatGr58]

Take a wire clothes hanger, unbend it so you have it as a straight wire, run it thru a loop in the chain, then twist a knot/loop in the hanger wire, then you can use it to wrap it to the frame, bend the wires apart as needed, etc., to keep the chain up and it will easily pull thru the head once you get the head loosened and ready to pull off.

But you need to be a bit more descriptive in what you have already done....not sure what you mean by the cam chain getting stuck...where, like around the bottom of the crank against the side of the engine case? If the cams are already out of the head, then you can just reverse the rotation to free up the chain. If you were rotating the engine to get access to the OTHER set of cam sprocket bolts for loosening in preparation for removal, then again, as long as there is still one bolt in each sprocket, and the cam chain tensioner is still in place, you can turn the engine in the opposite direction, the cams will still be in synch and turn properly so as not to hit pistons with valves. But if the chain is still on the sprockets, then not sure WHY the chain would get stuck down on the crank.....usually only would happen with lots of chain slack allowing it to kink!?

Have you pulled the spark plugs? Engine compression can put quite a bit of resistance simulating a stuck part!? Write back with more info if this doesn't help!
T.C.

[knohbody]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I ended up just taking out the cams. i was trying to get it to Top dead center by rotating the engine so i could get to the first set of sprocket bolts when it got stuck.
anyway, i've got the old head off now, and i should be able to put the new one on tomorrow.. wish me luck... and if you guys think of anything that might give me problems, please mention it.
-james
Edit: oh yeah, eternal gratitude for everyone who responded!

[TopCatGr58]

Hey there James,

You may want to pull the cam chain tensioner out and push the adjusting rod/plunger in(out away from the engine), and the put it back on the bike, to provide a little more slack to make it a little easier to put the sprockets back on the cams. Be VWERY careful putting the cam journals back on, easy to loose those washer and nuts down the cam chain well. The cams will be a little difficult to put back in cause it will not go directly down along it's entire length to allow you to put ALL of the cam journal nuts on....so you'll need to fit like 3 or 4 of them and then gently tighten them down a bit to depress the cam and some valve springs just enough to expose enough of the journal studs so that you'll be able to get that last cam journal and it's washers and nuts in position.

I hope you have a good low range either inch pound or 0-75 ft/lb torque wrench....cause the cams are only 7ft/lbs, and the head nuts are only 25, the center under head nuts are only 14. Standard 0-140 ft/lb torque wrenches and clickers are not accurate at that low a torque value!!!

Be sure your cam alignment dots are straight up and #1 piston is at TDC, the crank turns easily when there's no spark plugs and compression, so watch the timing mark closely as well. Per the book, you may have to take a wrench and "SLIGHTLY" rotate a cam a little to get the dots and the teeth and sprockets to line up, but just a LITTLE. Once you get 1 bolt on each cam's sprockets and well tightened, then you can rotate the crank and cams together ONLY IN THE DIRECTION that the motor normally turns....clockwise from the left side! Cam bolts are 10ft/lbs IIRC!

Book describes only 2 stage head nut torqueing sequence, first to 15 lbs, then to 25! I learned in shop to go in 5 lb increments on heads, and that was old cast iron V-8's, with concern about warpage....much easier to warp an aluminum head IMHO. Also was recommended to put some WD-40 on the studs thread, so that you will be measuring the true torque pressure, not the threads resistance...clean them up with a wire brush/drill brush first!!! Then once it's all together, fire it up, run it up to Normal operating temps, then allow cool down, then check/retorque to spec values again. Perhaps some other master mechanics(present company excluded) regarding the need for the 5lb increments vs. the 15 and 25 lbs 2 step process!?
T.C.

[Ken Talbot]

Originally posted by TopCatGr58
Hey there James,
... Be VWERY careful putting the cam journals back on, easy to loose those washer and nuts down the cam chain well. ...
T.C.

What he really means is "stuff a rag in the cavity before you go anywhere close with loose, small parts"....
DAMHIKIJD...

[prometheus578]

The original head gasket has a separate cam chain guide gasket thing that sits in the cam chain well. Your new gasket set doesn't come with it. That part has been done away with.
Do not be an idiot and try to put it in anyway. You'll crack the cylinder when tightening that little bolt above the cam chain tensioner.
Not that I'd do anything as stupid as that!
(JB Weld and silicone had held it together pretty well for four years, but it's starting to leak again)

[knohbody]

bleh. spent most of yesterday trying to find a torque wrench that would do the job. 60 dollars later, i have one. hopefully up and running tonight. thanks alot guys.
-james

[knohbody]

sigh. not tonight. sheared one of the oil delivery bolts in the engine. going down to yamaha tomorrow to see if they have one in stock. and then i'm going to beg and plead with them to sell me one for less than a bajillion dollars. Murphy's law i guess. anywho. i got the head torqued down and the cams in before that happened. i also apparently stripped one of the bolts holding the cams down. luckily i have one from the other head. i'll post my progress tomorrow.
-james

[knohbody]

ok. waiting on the cursed bolt, and actually thinking about selling her... she's not in great shape... i haven't finished with the head yet, but she ran with the other head on, but was blowing oil out the first exhaust header with the other head. she ran last in january. needs a headlight, as the one i snarfed was from my other bike, an 81 virago. what do you guys think would be a fair price for it?

[pathfinder]

Don't Give up

You probably did not strip the stud, if your like me you stripped the nut. You can use a standard metric nut. Try and get the cheapest (softest) available so you don't strip the stud when tightening. They are made that way intentionaly so you don't strip the stud. Did you lap the valves on the replacement head, if it hadn't been rebuilt before you got it? If you didn't, its probably not going to be any better than with the original.

On the oil delivery pipe bolts remember the one with the big dimple in it goes on the top.

[scappod]

Cams

Okay Feeling rather Silly Here,
I need to know, Because I have yet to get a manual, How exactly to remove the cams, I have the cam cover off and all of the bolts loosened so if someone could tell me how to take them out I would be greatful.
Barry

[pggg]

Cams. Unbolt em and rip em out. Tricky bit's getting them back in right. hang the camchain.

[scappod]

Dont you have to remove the sprockets from them before ripping them out?