Cam Chain wear test?

[skids]

That last picture is what I was recalling. So my chain does not pull away like that.

I lined up the crank with the "T" timing mark and the dots are past the makers on the cam. Not sure how far is too much.

You might want to check to see if “T” is indeed at top dead center.

[MaximPhil]

Brian,
Is it just the angle of your picture but it looks as though you are not quite on T. ?
A touch more rotation might line up sprockets properly.
Remember to NEVER turn it backwards.

Phil

[dbbrian]

You might want to check to see if “T” is indeed at top dead center.

How would I check that if not by the timing mark?

[dbbrian]

Brian,
Is it just the angle of your picture but it looks as though you are not quite on T. ?
A touch more rotation might line up sprockets properly.
Remember to NEVER turn it backwards.

Phil

Nope, that moved it further. I lined it up with the mark, not the letter.

[Bonz]

Pull out the plugs so the engine turns spins easy by hand and you should be able to verify TDC by comparing piston position to the mark. Good point Skids.

[3Phase]

There is something odd about the timing wheel picture. It looks like the anti-vibration/anti-tamper paint on the timing pointer screw has been disturbed so the position of the pointer may not be correct. Check the paint and if it's been disturbed then you will have to go through the steps to align the timing pointer with the T (TDC) mark before you can trust the pointer and use it to set the ignition timing.

For the camshafts, the timing wheel and pointer in the picture are close enough to aligned with the T (TDC) mark that the camshaft timing dots are showing the camshaft timing is advanced.

Remember that it's 2-to-1 for crankshaft and camshaft revolutions.

A change in crankshaft position of 10 degrees would only be 5 degrees for the camshafts from, say, F (BTDC)) to T (TDC) or a few degrees after TDC (ATDC) is going to be very difficult to see with the camshaft timing dots and they would appear aligned with the raised marks on the camshaft bearing caps.

[Bonz]

I feel left out... Skids had a good idea about verifying top dead center. Why not do it with the spark plug out and a probe on the top of the piston. The eye can pick up the most minute movement and you would have TDC nailed. You would know how everything else relates based upon true top dead center and how the markings align.

[3Phase]

Huh?

Removing the spark plugs is a good idea but not "eyeballing" TDC when it's totally simple to do it accurately.

If you're going to start recommending the ol' Mark 1 eyeball and going by feel for mechanical adjustments then I suppose that you can easily check valve clearances without feeler gauges by looking for daylight between the valve shims and the camshaft lobes.

[Bonz]

Because folks were wondering if the marks were accurate, TDC of the number one piston by visually finding it or using a dial gauge is as accurate as it gets. Then you can see if your other marks match.

Sure, if the marks are a known quantity then you wouldn't do it that way. But there was some question/suggestion as to that, thus was why I suggested.

[3Phase]

Brian, to me it looks like a they're far more advanced than just a few degrees from a misset timing pointer.

I'm not trying to scare you but you're going to end up needing new valves if you try to work without taking a step back and figuring out why those camshaft timing marks are so far advanced at what should be TDC.

New valves are no longer available but you can sometimes find them online new or used if you search by part numbers.

VALVE, INTAKE 1J7-12111-01-00
VALVE, EXHAUST 12R-12121-00-00

[Bonz]

Had you adjusted the cam chain tensioner, rode it around and then pulled the cover? If it was running before you pulled the cover and haven't done anything to the tensioner to lessen the tension with the cover off, it should still run without bending everything.

[3Phase]

He said it was running. (scratching head)

Making a WAG it's possible that I'm completely wrong, it's all good and the pictures are wonky
or
someone didn't have a valve shim tool and put the cams back in a tooth off after changing a valve shim or several.

[Bonz]

We all have the same ailment! We pull a valve cover to change a weepy gasket and end up changing everything we can see! LOL.

The first time I swapped cams on the ZRX, I got them a tooth off. The bike wouldn't run for stink. But thank goodness it ran and there were no issues... Don't remember if it was advanced or retarded on the timing but it didn't have anything past 3000 RPM.

Being a tooth off is a huge change when you consider the small adjustment made for instance when you degree a cam. If the cams were off a tooth or it had stretched that much, wouldn't performance be so far off it would be obvious something was wrong?

[JeffH]

Brian can confirm when he checks in later but his bike is RUNNER

Very nice Pacifico E. He has ridden it to VYR at Iron Horse a few times. Great machine. Runs Great. Good MPG I'm guessing he has ridden it 20,000 miles of its 50,000 miles on the ODO. (86 thou Km) Rides it in Canada with Phil quite alot of trips (on Ride Reports)

So the issue seems to be what Brian thought was some Decel cam chain rattle. Don't know when he first noticed it. That's why he was interested in determining cam chain wear. Clearly the alignment dots are off now be it from a worn out cam chain or some other gremlin.

As bikerphil stated with 86,000 Km it is not impossible that the cam chain is just worn out and stretched to its limit. Solution we've been saying is ACCT and new cam chain. But in taking off the old tensioner it would be interesting to see if it is in a proper position for tensioning or if the OEM POS tensioner has slipped.

Guess in either case I'd replace the cam chain and put in a new ACCT as Scott suggested so eloquently stated. OEM tensioner not holding tension is, well, bad. Hopefully Brian can clarify all this for us. But bike is a very good LD Runner that now for some reason has the cam position dots not lining up.

Jeff

[Bonz]

I agree with all of that, the ACCT is a must do, especially with the valve cover off you can be sure nothing slips when you swap them.

However if the OEM tensioner is at its limit or only keeping tension to a certain point in the adjustment travel, does that necessarily mean the cam chain is at its limit. Someone help me on that?

If that chain is not taut, and the dots don't line up, if a proper tensioner was put on and the engine spun by hand with the valve cover off, you could see if the dots then line up. Then you're no worse off than you were before, if the dots don't line up then you're replacing the cam chain.