Gas consumption is way too HIGH, Mileage too low

[GLoweVA]

TC that makes sense. So maybe we need to figure out when #2 stops combusting.
Does the spark disappear? If so, why #2 and not #3? (Same coil)
Maybe the cap has a heat problem.
Or the wire? Or coil. But with the wasted spark, both are needed to complete the spark path.

Could it be a compression issue? As it heats up.... maybe this time with the head back on and retorqued it won't do it again.

So that leaves fuel delivery. As long as the intakes are tight, it should suck in fuel fine.

It seems to me that this is a heat (warm up) issue. It runs great until so many miles down the road.

[RichV]

He pulled the head, inspected the valve seals, the rings, etc., so not sure why he was/igetting the extra oil slipping by and eventually fouling the plug. I know he said he swapped coils....and also I think he then tried swapping plug wires 2-3 and the problem stayed with the cylinder.

I know the comp. piston ring has a right side up, and I thought the scrubber ring also had an orientation to help skim the oil back down the cylinder.

IF he got the scrubber ring upside down, that could allow the oil to slip by even if the OIL rings were properly installed and stagger gapped.

SO...Rich, just have to ask if you verified that the 2nd piston ring was oriented properly.

I swapped the coil with two other coils with no change. I didn't swap the wires.

The rings are correct.

I put the engine back together. This time I adjusted the valve clearance, changed the valve seals and sealed the head gasket. Compression tested at 145 for all four. Vacuum on intakes was strong on all four.

If the problem still exist after the carbs are put on there's not much left.

[RichV]

TC that makes sense. So maybe we need to figure out when #2 stops combusting.
Does the spark disappear? If so, why #2 and not #3? (Same coil)
Maybe the cap has a heat problem.
Or the wire? Or coil. But with the wasted spark, both are needed to complete the spark path.

Could it be a compression issue? As it heats up.... maybe this time with the head back on and retorqued it won't do it again.

So that leaves fuel delivery. As long as the intakes are tight, it should suck in fuel fine.

It seems to me that this is a heat (warm up) issue. It runs great until so many miles down the road.

It runs REALLY great for about 20 minutes.

I have a tester that checks the charge on the plug wire that I can put on for the ride. It is supposed to be "invisible" to the current. I can put it on if the problem still exists.

I think the head was loose. The acorn bolts came off to easily. This time I sealed the head gasket (copper sealant) and tightened the acorns down (not too tight). I noticed on tear-down that I was getting a small oil leak from the front of the cam chain gallery through the head gasket.

A head gasket leak would explain all of the problems including the seal leak.

Engine heats, gap widens, oil leaks from gallery into #2 on intake, plug foals, combustion stops, compression and gas "leaks" back into gallery, blows left seal, gas washes piston clean.

Sounds good on paper anyway.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Rich,

Yeah, that sounds good also. Yes, after warming up the bike just to warm up, not necessarily taking it for a ride, just to warm up and then let it cool down. THEN do another retorquing of the head nuts. Also, you did use a little oil on the threads of the nuts didn't you??

Okay, hope this helps and that it behaves in all 4 all of the time!

T.C.

[RichV]

Also, you did use a little oil on the threads of the nuts didn't you??

Yes. I sometimes forget to do it but not this time.

[RichV]

A new day and a new ride. Before I took the bike out, I checked the carberator sync and tweaked it a bit. It smoked for a while out of the #1 and #2 pipes but that could have just been leftover oil in the pipe. Ran it for 20 minutes (idle) and this is what #2 looked like at the end.



Looks fairly clean. I was using one that was previously fouled so the dark insulator is not from this run. I also ran it the full time with my spark tester attached and it flashed every time.

So I swapped out #1 and #2 with new plugs and went for a ride. All went well until 30 minutes later when I left the interstate and stopped at a light. When I accelerated out of the light. The engine lightly sputtered up to speed. Not much but it wasn't there before.

So for the rest of the ride, it would do that while accelerating but not at idle or at speed. After about 120 miles of riding I got home and pulled the plugs.



So #2 is fouled again but not as bad as before. The left seal was also leaking again on my boot. The head bolts were all torqued okay and there were no other leaks.

So after changing all of the valve seals, checking the rings and sealing the head gasket. It still has a problem. Not a big one but I think it should still be fixed.

After 80 miles of riding I stopped to get something to eat. When I came out the bike had marked it's spot.



If you look below the left timing plate you can see the oil spots on the ground. The problem with acceleration was still there so the cool down didn't help.

So I don't know what to try next. I'm kind of out of ideas.

I've:
1. changed the rings.
2. Rebuilt the carbs (and re-jet)
3. Swapped out the coils (two times)
4. Changed the plug caps.
5. Changed the plugs (many times).
6. Tightened the intake valve clearance.
7. Changed oil (fuel smell) after ring change.
8. Sealed head gasket with copper sealant (yesterday).
9. Changed left seal three times (but not yesterday).

Everything I did resulted in an improvement but not a fix for my two remaining issues:

1. #2 plug fouls and rough acceleration.
2. Left seal leaks.

I want to focus on painting and chrome work next but I need to fix these problems.

The only things I haven't tried is swapping out the ignition unit TID14-04 (I have two) and running a hotter plug.

So any suggestions on some other next step? So much has been fixed and I would like to get the last two issues behind me.

Thanks again for your help.

[RichV]

Additional note: I swapped out the Ignition Unit with the spare I have and it's working. Won't know if it solves the problem until I ride it tomorrow.

[jetmechmarty]

I think the spark is quitting on you. What about the pick-up coil wires? I think you need to have a very close look at that.

[GLoweVA]

I think the spark is quitting on you. What about the pick-up coil wires? I think you need to have a very close look at that.

If it was the pick coil wire, he'd lose both #2&3, not just #2 and it would run like crap on only 2 cylinders.

I'm going to be thinking about this one all day tomorrow.

[RichV]

I think the spark is quitting on you. What about the pick-up coil wires? I think you need to have a very close look at that.

I completely removed the pickups and tested the wires, cleaned the connectors and put a new sleeve on the wire bundle. Everything looked okay. I tested the wires under motion for any kind of a drop off of continuity. I have a second pair but I'm reluctant to mess with it more.

I originally was having problems with the advance but that has been working okay since I replaced all the carb jets.

Wouldn't the problem manifest itself in two of the cylinders if one of the pickups was intermittent? Since cylinders fire in two pairs at the same time 180 degrees from each other, the problem would be in #2 and #3 not just #2.

The only thing I found is a fouled #2 plug and the symptom is mild sputtering on acceleration and low mileage. I swapped out the Ignition Unit and I don't expect it to fix the problem because of the pairing. I feel the hotter plug and running it more may cause the problem to slowly go away. The mileage is currently at about 25mpg and was less that 10mpg when this thread started.

I ordered a speedi sleeve for the seal leak. There was a small amount of pitting on the shaft and that may be causing the leak. This should fix that and make the seal tighter.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Rich,

The spare TCI won't be the problem either, just like the pickup coils because of both have failings, they affect both cylinders of the involved coil, not just 1 cylinder. However, IF a coil itself is failing, especially if it's failing under heat stress...then it may NOT be generating enough juice to fire both plugs..just 1, and the other one eventually flames out.

The one thing you said you had NOT tried was to actually swap the coil plug wires between #2 and #3....put #2's cap/wire over on #3, and vice versa. New plug in #2, and then test ride. Once it starts acting up again, stop and pull the plug wires of both cylinders, pull the plugs and inspect.

IF the oil fouling stays with the same cylinder...then it's engine or carb related. IF the fouling moves to the OTHER cylinder....#3, then it's the coil.

Bring your ohmeter with you and test both the Secondary resistance while hot as well as the Primary wires.....and IF the fouling moved to the #3 cylinder, then I would bet you will find bad values/out of spec for the coil vs. when it's cold.

T.C.

[jetmechmarty]

Yet another expense, but it could well be the fix.

http://www.z1enterprises.com/ItemDet...1&item=DYDC1-1

[RichV]

I'll try the wire swap. If it doesn't work I guess I'll pull the carbs again and swap out the components in #2.

I wish I had a spare #2 carb body. The one I have has a broken float post and the one I'm using has a repaired post. Anyway I'll swap out the float. It might not handle motion very well.

[RichV]

bad weather the last two days has caused me to take a different approach. I've decided to not swap the leads just yet and to take a more proactive approach. I've gotten better at removing the carb and now can do it in a few minutes. Takes longer to put them back but not much. So I've done the following:

1. Put spare floats I have (and have tested) into #2 and #4 carbs and swapped the needles and float pins.
2. Swapped the pilot jets in #2 and #3.
3. Put #1 carb diaphragm in #2 carb. Replaced #1 with spare. Made sure (again) that none of them had any holes.
4. Replaced the main jet in #2 with a spare new one I had (I over bought them).

I also worked on the float mount for #2. I filed the sides of the mounts to make them smoother. In one test, the float stuck in the open position. I filed the spot to take away the risk of sticking.

Finally, I cleaned all the parts and tweeked the float heights. I installed them back on the bike and tested the float bowl levels. All were the same and in spec.

Ran the bike for 15 minutes and resynced.

Two things I noticed during the warm-up.

1. The exhaust smell changed and was less "pungent".
2. The smell of gas around the tank area was mostly gone.
3. No smoke from the #1-#2 pipe.

I'll probable fix the crankshaft leak before I take it out again. Tired of getting oil on my boot. The steedi sleeve should be here tomorrow.

If I get the same problem on #2, I will swap the leads between #2 and #3.

If that doesn't work, I'll just continue to ride it and see if the problem goes away or try the hotter plug.

[GLoweVA]

Maybe it was the float post issue. #2's float could get stuck up thus sealing off the fuel and starving #2 and with no combustion then the oil wouldn't burn out (or get pushed out) from the combustion.

That's the beauty of these bikes, troubleshooting if done in the correct steps can really narrow down a problem. Like swapping the plug wires from 2 to 3 would tell if it's electrical or carbs.