counter shaft washer swap

[mack]

mike

As you can tell I'm not too computer savy, but this is the paragraph to look for and the associated pictures. Depending on how bad yours are you may or may not need to follow TC's method for 4th


(which are actually on the 5th gear sprocket), and also for the dogs of 1st gear(on 4th gear sprocket) provided they aren't worn as much as the ones in this picture.

For this particular repair of these dogs I actually used a cut off disc instead, and made cuts along the red lines shown in pic#24, removing 1 to 1.5mm of the dog. I used a caliper to measure the width of the dog, and then used that for the other 2 dogs, and tried to keep them very close to the same size, to better ensure that all 3 would make contact with the 1st gear slots when put back together. I also cut them at a slight angle to make them better fit with the slots and to help them stay together when engaged....see the following 2 diagrams for a better view and explanation of how to grind them. Again, just a very slight angle of a few degrees is all that is required.

[mack]

washer

Greg- they certainly are pricy. I will be doing as you recommended concerning the washer, unfortunately I had no choice but to grind notches in my gears.

Big- There certainly are two schools of thought on this repair. I don't see a way around it now that new replacements are made of unobtainium. The effort required to get access to the gears sort of dictate the more intrusive repair over just doing the washer swap and hope that it lasts for a couple seasons as was noted by Tarzan.
A personal choice made by the individual based on the condition of the gears he inspects and the degree of machine gunning occurring under load.

[Radioguylogs]

Mack

...For this particular repair of these dogs I actually used a cut off disc instead, and made cuts along the red lines shown in pic#24, removing 1 to 1.5mm of the dog....

Thanks for the reference. I remember reading that and noting it seemed appropriate for really badly damaged dogs- as you also noticed.

I'll post pictures of my situation when I get there.

[trbig]

Greg- they certainly are pricy. I will be doing as you recommended concerning the washer, unfortunately I had no choice but to grind notches in my gears.

Big- There certainly are two schools of thought on this repair. I don't see a way around it now that new replacements are made of unobtainium. The effort required to get access to the gears sort of dictate the more intrusive repair over just doing the washer swap and hope that it lasts for a couple seasons as was noted by Tarzan.
A personal choice made by the individual based on the condition of the gears he inspects and the degree of machine gunning occurring under load.

A lot of my last post was referring to Radioguy who said he had new gears and was considering grinding on a new one. I'm not against grinding at all since as you say, new ones are unavailable for the most part or if available, out of reach financially for many.

It's nearly impossible to look at a gear in an unknown motor and know if it had been skipping or not. This gear had been skipping, and you can see by the shiney areas how little contact these 2nd/5th gears have before the washer swap. I don't know how they last at all when OEM.







On this sideview, the thickness of the washer you swap is about all the contact there is, so that's why moving the washer essesntially doubles the contact area....





And also why I say people getting overzealous on their grinding is just removing material from the base (Strong point) where we have had instances of dogs breaking/shearing off. These gears don't contact each other deeply enough to "Pull them together" even if this grinding stayed the way we did it.. which it doesn't. I wish I'd gotten a picture last time I was in this motor of the gears. I was in it routinely for tearing things up, but this one has been stubborn and refuses to die so easily. The dogs and slots kind of just "Smoosh" together since you removed the hardening.

As I said, I'm not against grinding to gears that need it, but I am against grinding gears and removing that hardness on new gears or on gears that have been working fine as a "Preventative" type thing. Grinding is a far inferior thing than the original gears are and is/should be a last resort. Grinding them at an angle clear down to the base of the dog, removing the strongest point.. when no contact of the gears will ever be made there.. is pointless, and does nothing but harm.. but it's hard to change peoples' mindsets. I do apologize if my opinions come across so strongly or harsh. Political correctness is definitely not my forte', but I do mean well.

[mack]

opinions

Big- many of us are not career mechanics and we are learning in a trial by fire environment. This wouldn't be possible without the indepth knowledge and willingness to share it from members like you, BA80, Motoman, Crazy Steve, 3 Phase and TC just to name a few. I personally pay very close attention what everyone advises when I pose a question, then sit down and try to figure out why it works that way. The books show the how, but other than the Haynes, never the why, and thats what you guys all do soooo well.
Your tip thread on how to get this motor back together is my bible, but i'm trying to learn at the same time rather than just repeating something someone else has done.
No apology from you or anyone else is required or desired! I say thanx and keep up the good work. We students need the valuable input!

[timoteo539]

Big I agree. But, are these gears available anyplace? I Haven't had to work on them for my SF or LH but this E was driven into the ground and I figured since the final drive and drive shaft have been virtually stripped that the second gear (at least) would be in rough shape. Since it was a long way from being a runner when I got it, I have no way of knowing if it needed the repair or not. Inspection reveiled evidence of the requirement .But since it was apart, I would rather make the repair now than put it all back together and find out later I should have. If I had new gears I would have prefered the washer swap and pre-loading the shifter in the future for sure, just like I'd been the only rider from the start. I'm not aware that that new gears was an option!

I saw a new 5th gear on Ebay for $89.00. But why bother? I just bought 2 like-new complete transmissions for $120 ea. On Ebay by making offers.

[timoteo539]

A lot of my last post was referring to Radioguy who said he had new gears and was considering grinding on a new one. I'm not against grinding at all since as you say, new ones are unavailable for the most part or if available, out of reach financially for many.

It's nearly impossible to look at a gear in an unknown motor and know if it had been skipping or not. This gear had been skipping, and you can see by the shiney areas how little contact these 2nd/5th gears have before the washer swap. I don't know how they last at all when OEM.

On this sideview, the thickness of the washer you swap is about all the contact there is, so that's why moving the washer essesntially doubles the contact area....

And also why I say people getting overzealous on their grinding is just removing material from the base (Strong point) where we have had instances of dogs breaking/shearing off. These gears don't contact each other deeply enough to "Pull them together" even if this grinding stayed the way we did it.. which it doesn't. I wish I'd gotten a picture last time I was in this motor of the gears. I was in it routinely for tearing things up, but this one has been stubborn and refuses to die so easily. The dogs and slots kind of just "Smoosh" together since you removed the hardening.

As I said, I'm not against grinding to gears that need it, but I am against grinding gears and removing that hardness on new gears or on gears that have been working fine as a "Preventative" type thing. Grinding is a far inferior thing than the original gears are and is/should be a last resort. Grinding them at an angle clear down to the base of the dog, removing the strongest point.. when no contact of the gears will ever be made there.. is pointless, and does nothing but harm.. but it's hard to change peoples' mindsets. I do apologize if my opinions come across so strongly or harsh. Political correctness is definitely not my forte', but I do mean well.

This is probably a stupid question. But if grinding the cogs down removes the hardness, why not have them re-hardened?

[DiverRay]

IF you have a shop nearby that CAN CORRECTLY harden them, and NOT charge an arm and a leg, then do it! Most of us do not have that option, so we work with what we have.....
And yes, I have done three transmissions so far, and will be working on a fourth early next year. That one WILL need anything I can do to make it strong, as the engine will be pushing a "little" more than stock torque and HP...

[red bandit]

In order to have a metal hardened you need to know what the metal is because the hardening process is different for different metals ie: the temperature, length of time at said temp. & rate of cooling. You also need to know at what hardness you want said metal, again the temp & rate of cooing changes the hardness. There's more to it than this.

[timoteo539]

In order to have a metal hardened you need to know what the metal is because the hardening process is different for different metals ie: the temperature, length of time at said temp. & rate of cooling. You also need to know at what hardness you want said metal, again the temp & rate of cooing changes the hardness. There's more to it than this.

There is a machinist in my town that does heat treatment. Since they make gears, I would assume he would know the correct process.

[trbig]

IF you have a shop nearby that CAN CORRECTLY harden them, and NOT charge an arm and a leg, then do it! Most of us do not have that option, so we work with what we have.....
And yes, I have done three transmissions so far, and will be working on a fourth early next year. That one WILL need anything I can do to make it strong, as the engine will be pushing a "little" more than stock torque and HP...

Ray, unless a 2nd gear is just absolutely wiped and won't hold any pressure at all, it's just my personal opinion that the washer swap alone would solve most of the skipping problems for 2nd. That being said, if it is skipping in 1st, your only option seems to be a 4th/1st grind... unless you can score new gears somewhere. As I've said in the past, I found some washers that were exactly half the thickness of the OEM washer on 4th gear. I wanted to try to move 4th a little closer to 1st gear and see if this would be an optional fix like 2nd gear. I put one of these half-thickness washers on one side of 4th and the other on the other side to move it just half the washer thickness distance towards 1st gear. When the bike was in 4th gear, it would contact and grind on 1st gear and wiped them out in no time at all even though I TRIED to remember not to hit 4th.

[jetmechmarty]

If the dogs and slots aren't cut to mate exactly, then you harden them, you'll end up with a dog floating around in the gearbox.