Won't shift into third when cold????

[Radioguylogs]

Well, I've put 50 miles on the bike since I tackled the clutch and the pilot jet problems.

I grabbed a couple of pictured, but they seems blurry, probably it was dusk and had an excessively long exposure:





Soon you'll see Greg's luggage rack appear on it.

I have two problems:

(1) When I first start riding, the transmission won't shift into third gear. After a few minutes, it will shift in to third, and then four gear, but only if the RPM is over 3500 for each shift.

Eventually when the bike warms up, and all the gears shift normally.

I read the search older posts as much I could, but didn't find any others that had a similar experience.

What would cause this? When it's cold, I can push up on the shift lever with as much force as I dare, and just feels hard, like it's blocked out.


(2) The other problem it that the bike consistently has a few violent jerks in first gear if I accelerate rapidly. The jerks usually occur around 3500 and 5k RPM.

I think the clutch is slipping, just like others warned me in this post:http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42467

I will let the clutch go for a while, and if it is still troublesome after a couple hundred miles, I'll get the Barnett clutch springs as others had advised form the beginning (I can hear you..."I told you so"....I'm learning to respect my elders).


I could really use some advice about the shifting problems. This is my first time riding an XS1100- and I absolutely LOVE it. The torque is addicting to me.

[tcoop]

Not sure on the first issue. Only thing I can think of is sludge or possible bent fork.

the second issue sounds like what was happening to my sons bike. First gear would slip out and then grab again. This was from the dog ears on wearing and not being able to stay engaged. He eventually flipped the bike over and fixed the first and second gear. (There is a how-to in the Repair section)

[Radioguylogs]

Thanks tcoop-I hope not

the second issue sounds like what was happening to my sons bike. First gear would slip out and then grab again. This was from the dog ears on wearing and not being able to stay engaged. He eventually flipped the bike over and fixed the first and second gear. (There is a how-to in the Repair section)

Uh-oh. It never occurred to me that the dogs could slip and re-engage. I always imagined they would only pop out-of-gear.

I wonder how I could determine if this is my problem.

Does clutch slip happen to folks in first gear? In other gears?

[donebysunday]

Dog slot

I think you have already determined the dogs slipping in the slots until they find the best slant between dogs and slots to lock up. Better to take care of this sooner than later ! It may be a bit less $ if done early
Yes clutch slip can show up in any gear, just depends on your favorite gear (where you enjoy the engine pull the most), will show up in all gears eventually.
BTW that is a real nice looking bike, !!!!!

Uh-oh. It never occurred to me that the dogs could slip and re-engage. I always imagined they would only pop out-of-gear.

I wonder how I could determine if this is my problem.

Does clutch slip happen to folks in first gear? In other gears?

[Radioguylogs]

I think you have already determined the dogs slipping in the slots until they find the best slant between dogs and slots to lock up. Better to take care of this sooner than later ! It may be a bit less $ if done early
Yes clutch slip can show up in any gear, just depends on your favorite gear (where you enjoy the engine pull the most), will show up in all gears eventually.
BTW that is a real nice looking bike, !!!!!

Don:

Thanks for the compliment.

Glad you're back in the keyboard saddle, at least.

Actually I had not yet concluded the dogs were slipping. Do you think that's what it is? If yes, then the dogs would start in the first available set of slots, then pop out when the torque increases around 3.5k RPM. I notice the problem seems consistent during each trial.

I do want to limit the number of trials to save as material as possible in case the dogs are actually slipping (same as your thinking).

Yet you mentioned weak clutch can slip whenever you ask for torque in any gear. My problem is only in first gear so far.

My slipping is quite jerky and unnerving. Would a clutch slip be jerky?

This problem and the third gear problem have me fearing upside-down surgery this winter when I had other projects planned. But, like the other members, I'll be doing whatever it takes.

[donebysunday]

Your welcome ! Thank You Too ! Normally clutch slip comes on progressively just as though you were grabbing the clutch lever or releasing it, slip is usually not jerky in the clutch but could be in other wear points in the drive line, where this happens in the power range is determined by how worn the dogs/slots are. This jerky slip could also be middle or final drive splines but in that case shows the wear much sooner and leaves you stranded quicker than clutch or dogs. IMHO this sounds like trans., dogs/slots. Have you ever been into the trans on any bike or car before ?

Don:

Thanks for the compliment.

Glad you're back in the keyboard saddle, at least.

Actually I had not yet concluded the dogs were slipping. Do you think that's what it is? If yes, then the dogs would start in the first available set of slots, then pop out when the torque increases around 3.5k RPM. I notice the problem seems consistent during each trial.

I do want to limit the number of trials to save as material as possible in case the dogs are actually slipping (same as your thinking).

Yet you mentioned weak clutch can slip whenever you ask for torque in any gear. My problem is only in first gear so far.

My slipping is quite jerky and unnerving. Would a clutch slip be jerky?

This problem and the third gear problem have me fearing upside-down surgery this winter when I had other projects planned. But, like the other members, I'll be doing whatever it takes.

[Radioguylogs]

...Normally clutch slip comes on progressively just as though you were grabbing the clutch lever or releasing it, slip is usually not jerky in the clutch but could be in other wear points in the drive line, where this happens in the power range is determined by how worn the dogs/slots are. This jerky slip could also be middle or final drive splines but in that case shows the wear much sooner and leaves you stranded quicker than clutch or dogs. IMHO this sounds like trans., dogs/slots. Have you ever been into the trans on any bike or car before ?

I wondered about the splines also, thinking that first gear puts the most torque the splines. I can't rule it out yet. I wonder if anyone has any ideas to rule it out.

I thought about your explanation that the clutch-slip tends to manifest during engagement/disengagement. That's not what I experience. The clutch is fully engaged when I have the problem, and it doesn't act 'slippy' during any of the shifts. It doesn't sound like you think the clutch slip would be so jerky.

Then I begin to conclude you are probably right....probably first gear dogs.

Have I been in a transmission before? I did a lawn tractor a couple of year ago. Its actually rather similar. No other experience.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Mike,

Like Don has suggested, you have already pretty much determined it's the 1st gear dogs/slots that are skipping out and in to engagement=jerk! When the clutch slips under load, it's usually in the higher gears and at higher rpms, ie., you're cruising along at 4k rpm in 4th, and then you try to perform a passing maneuver, you crank the throttle open alot, but instead of the bike speeding up, the rpms rise a bit, but the bike doesn't accelerate, you back off the throttle and then you feel the bike and engine re-engage and you are able to maintain cruising speed....then if you SLOWLY increase the throttle you are able to get the bike to slowly speed up without the clutch slipping.

The tranny problems were first reported for the early models as the 2nd gear skip. But I've seen several of the later model bikes where 1st gear went out first, and 2nd wasn't far behind it. The lower gears are shifted into and out of more often than the higher gears, and every time they shift in and out, they get rubbed a bit on the interface of the dogs/slots and because they are SQUARE CUT....it doesn't take much wear to round off the surface enough to then allow them to slowly slide apart under strong throttle load! Yamaha learned about the problem and later factory undercut/dovetail the interfaces in the replacement gear sets that they sold.

I don't know the history of your bike, from whom you got it, etc, but if may have been parked by the PO because of the skipping gear issue, but possibly only after they learned they could HOLD the gear lever UP with their foot to help prevent it from skipping....and that both wears down the sides of the shift forks, as well as possibly BEND them.

Now....as for just shifting up thru the gears, WHY ARE YOU SHIFTING AT 3500 rpm???? That's where the power band BEGINS!! These bikes and engines are NOT HARLEYS, they are high performance relatively high revving...For their genre/age, and the gears need to be spinning at a decent speed to be able to match up, and so shifting into the upper gears at such low rpms just puts too much stress/LUGGING on the engine. REV the engine a bit in each gear....like up to 5k before shifting and you'll probably find that you can then upshift into the higher gears while the bike is still cold!

T.C.

[BA80]

JAT but the not shifting until it gets warmed up sounds suspiciously like a weak return spring either on the shifter or the ratchet.

Try pushing down a little on the shifter before you go up into 3rd or 4th, not hard just a little.

[TopCatGr58]

Not trying to be contrary , but I haven't heard of anyone having trouble upshifting due to a worn/weak shift lever spring?? Usually both just engine vibration and gravity will help bring the shift lever back down to reset the pawl for the next gear/upshift. What I have heard AND Experienced is with Downshifting, the spring isn't strong enough to RAISE the lever back up and so it doesn't reset the pawl to grab the next dowel pin/gear to allow another downshift, and gently pulling UP on the shift lever just enough to reset the pawl will assist in being able to continue to downshift to the lower gears!

T.C.

[BA80]

Me either, I've experienced it.

[Radioguylogs]

I really hoping to get this kind of help.

TC: Your description of the slipping clutch vs. the first gear dogs give me the confidence to know what I need to do next. Thanks, I hate to choose that road without some measure of reassurance.

Why do I even try to shift so low @ 3.5k? OK perhaps you have good question there, but it seems unnecessarily hard on the engine to wind it out while I'm loafing through a neighborhood or situations like that. If I want get out onto the main road, I normally would wind it up to at least to 5k. If the bike won't shift into 3rd, I don't want to pull out onto the main road. Perhaps I should learn to loaf at higher RPM.

Greg: You might be able to put me on the right track about the third gear cold shifting problem.

I think the bike was probably parked due to the broken wire in the IGN pick-up coil. Then, perhaps sometime later, some kids tried to start it and the corroded fuse block melted. Then they cut a bunch of wires, and took off the all electrical modules. Don't how they imagined to solve their problem like that.

When the bike is shifting correctly, I have noticed the shift lever is slightly reluctant to bounce back down after some shifts. I had the shifter cover off to polish it, and I fussed with it and matched the dots to what I thought was the most tweaked position it could be. Perhaps my 'tweaking" need tweaking?

I'm gonna try pushing down slightly before the cold 3rd shift and report back.

Interesting thought that the PO might have learned to hold up the lever. The problem happens in first gear. I don't see how the PO could stay in first gear by holding the lever up. It would go to 2nd gear?

Anyway, I am bummed I have to dig into the tranny at 15k miles, but I'll look at it as an opportunity for growth, right?

[bikerphil]

Don't feel bad, my tranny went out at 7000 miles.

[Radioguylogs]

Ouch! That hurts.

[bikerphil]

Yeah, and I repaired it in 1990 following the factory service manual which tells you to disassemble the entire engine.