Fuel

[ViperRon]

I am in north western Virginia and here we have an abundance of venders and that is where we have a big problem here. The issue is there is no testing regulation that is really enforced. First there are ma and pa gas station who do not pump the trash out of tanks as it should be. You go to some and probably will not even see a log where they check the tanks for water. The issue with this is when the tanks are refueled what do you think is pumped into your tank. Also you really do not know the percentage of ethanol is in your gas. Here many people have had issues in repair shops so much so that the repair shops do tests on tanks before any warranty repairs. Two shops that do lawn type equipment repair have told me that here locally there are 3 stations that are selling gas with from 15% to 19% ethanol and have had as much as 1%water content not to mention cross contamination of diesel fuel at times. Most major companies have either separate tanks on the large trucks or specifically labeled trucks for gas or diesel but not always so for all. Ma and pa may have the same truck delivers diesel one day gas the next and even their home heating oil now and then.

With fuels there is most times a difference in the purity of regular versus premium so not only is it possible to get lower octane but more trash and ethanol in regular.

Personally I wish there was better testing but there is not so you just have to use judgment and decide what you want to deal with. I look at the station name and location as much as anything else.

Now to explain why I look so close is the fact I have had such bad experience with chain saws and weed eaters and ethanol just destroying carbs. We have a ethanol free station its the only place I get gas for lawn and other yard equipment and I am very picky about the station I go for truck car and expecially the bike.

[madmax-im]

Good option............if you don't LD ride much.

depending upon where I am going i can run E0 all the way to my destination and find it once i am there too...Sometimes the stations are not always close to the main interstates...which really is fine with me...

[Bonz]

OK, here comes a can of worms...

I agree that ethanol isn't that good for our fuel system (o-rings in carbs and petcocks specifically). However ethanol fuel in a properly tuned bike is not going to do the things to the engine such as foul plugs and carbon up the engine. Those are different issues entirely.

I have put 10,000 miles on the SG since acquiring it in the spring of 2010 and the plugs are a nice tan color running nothing but E10 here in Colorado. Plugs foul from too rich of a mixture or excessive oil consumption, not ethanol fuel.

I rebuilt the carbs with new o-rings for the needles seats in Sept of 2010 after it started dumping fuel out the airbox. I realize the octy wasn't working properly at the time as well but the carbs are the last line of defense, per se, for keeping fuel from flowing when we don't want it to. New needle seat o-rings, problem solved.

This summer 2014, had fuel start coming out the airbox. Rebuilt the octy and shortly after put new o-rings on the needle seats. Old needle seat o-rings were soft and not sealing. Problem solved. Yes, ethanol related but for heavens sake it's been 4 years!

When I was in the carbs doing the o-rings, they were clean as could be after about 8000 miles since the previous service over a 4 year period. Float bowls were perfect with no debris or tarnish. Jets were clean and passages clear. I regularly run Seafoam or Berryman's, as well as a couple ounces of 2 cycle marine oil in a full tank. If guys do that and still have fouled plugs and carboned valves, it ain't the ethanol.

Ethanol fuel does not burn any less completely and "push past the valves". It has lower energy content, but that only lowers mpg. The energy content in a gallon of ethanol is decidedly less than a gallon of gasoline, so it's a given that running E85 in a flex fuel vehicle will result in lower mpg. The engine needs more fuel to do the same work to make up for lower energy conetnt.

Octane is octane whether by straight gas or ethanol blend. Running more octane (slower burning than lower octane) in gas than needed is what carbons up valves, which many guys insist on running 91 octane where these bikes only need 87 octane, or out here in Colorado 85 octane is our regular grade gas.

It has been proven time and time again unless you have a higher compression engine, high octane is not good nor needed. It makes the owner "feel" good and the rest is not good in terms of what it does to carbon valves. 91 octane has the same 10% ethanol as lower octane gas, it is the high octane fuel as a whole that is completing its burn as it exits the exhaust valve and that carbons up valves.

What I am getting at here is ethanol fuel can harm our fuel systems if we don't take care of the fuel system by using fuel additives. Letting the bike sit for extended periods is poor practice with any gas, it will still evaporate and do bad things just like 50 years ago. But you will carbon up valves in the long run when the bike is fed higher octane than needed, and foul plugs if the carbs are running rich and/or the engine is using excessive oil.

With that said, straight ethanol is of a higher octane in and of itself than straight gas, but has lower energy content. Energy content of the fuel has no bearing on the octane the fuel is, thus I do not understand where ethanol "loses it's already low octane value". Ethanol can degrade and lose octane value just like straight gas, thus lowering the overall octane value of E10 gas, but ethanol is not lower in octane to begin with.

It is fair to say ethanol accelerates the potential issues within a fuel system, and we need to service the fuel system more regularly than 35 years ago, no question. But when mechanics say 95% of fuel system problems are due to ethanol, it is that owners haven't taken the steps to adapt to ethanol before the problems occur. We can belly ache about ethanol or live with it by taking measures to slow its effect and minimize major issues.

It's our choice, as we can't change the ethanol in fuels.

[BA80]

No sense in worrying about it, you gotta run what the EPA (freakin' government) says you can. If you think it's bad now wait a few more years.

Ah well, maybe global warming or fracking will kill all of us before then anyway.

I have my bike tuned to run on regular unleaded that's available where I live, best you can do is the same. Going across the country as I have many times I've found that in different regions mileage and performance can vary greatly.

Tune your bike for where you ride it most. What are the other options?

[cajun31]

An interesting read

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/04/19...mages-engines/

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...orthought.aspx

[cajun31]

Looks like we are not the only ones debating

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...ilability.aspx

Hopefully the EPA will stick to their stand.. At least someone recognizes the fact that anything greater then 10% in our fuel is not good for motorcycles and ATV's.

[rdmcguy]

who are they trying to kid?

I don't know that much about ethanol, but have read in multiple places that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it yields,What's the point ,to raise corn prices?

[cajun31]

Anything

in their mind to help our economy and cut our dependence on foreign oil. I can not honestly say that I disagree. Of course one thing we have an abundance of in this country is agriculture. When we have to actually subsidize farmers and pay some to not farm, well that is making a statement. Of course debating this would be like debating politics or religion... it could go on and on and everyone's opinion has some merit. I do know that we need to keep a stable choice of fuel available... some will cost more if that is what you need for your application. I also think the EPA needs to make retail establishment post signs on E15 gas pumps warning of the ill effects it will have on smaller engines.

[BA80]

You have to admit though that everything rolled along rather smoothly in this country until big brother decided that he knew better.

The more government control there is, the less properly/efficiently whatever it's controlling works.

[cajun31]

and the funny thing

is it's our generation that is doing all the controlling.

[BA80]

I don't know what generation you are from but I was born in the 50's and raised in the 60's and 70's.

It's uniformed voters and the people they vote for that's doing the controlling.

[TopCatGr58]

Of course debating this would be like debating politics or religion... it could go on and on and everyone's opinion has some merit.

And regrettably, these topics are considered HOT BUTTON type topics, and are strongly suggested to NOT be discussed, even in the Member's Lounge due to the inherent inflammatory reaction that inevitably occurs with these types of topics!

Let's try not to make E10-15 into a hot button topic either.

Regrettably, this year, and possibly for some years in the future, we have lost a considerable amount of our Agricultural production with the DROUGHT of the West coast. And this occurance could also be a hot topic when the possibility of global warming is added to it, whether it be man made, a 100-1000 year natural solar cycle, or what.

T.C.

[mack]

In the interest

of civility I will keep this short and leave it at that. It's not the ethanol that leaves deposits and blows passed the valves it's all the crap it has collected from every vessel and line it has been in from the time it was produced to the time I purchased it.
There is a test kit to test the ethonol percentage in the fuel you intend to buy. The active ingredient in water in this little kit. That alone should tell you something.
Here in Canada, the ethanol is added to the fuel in the ground with a separate tanker. The only agitation is through the pumping action. So if your the first in line after the bowzer has left then your ethanol content is different than someone coming later on.
If there isn't a problem with this crap then why are, seafoam, STP, castrol, Star Tron, Amsoil etc all making a killing selling additives to minimize the damage it's doing.
With reguard to proper tuning..... apparently the AMA don't know how to tune their bikes either.

[BA80]

[Bonz]

What he said... I mean, what he didn't say...