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  • #61
    Keeping you abreast!

    Okay folks,

    I know how we like photos, and I had taken a bunch several years ago when I first installed this new battery, to make a tech tip about what to do when you install a new battery, etc., but never got around to posting them.

    Okay, just showing the packaging for the Walmart brand, that it comes with the battery and acid packed separately, it's "dry charged", and you get to add the acid once you get it home.



    Just a warning about removing the drain hose port cover so that it can vent when you add the acid as well as charging later.



    Showing a backlit view so you can see the dry cells, and the low and high water indicator lines.



    Here I am adding the electrolyte, it comes with a handy little hose, I should have been wearing gloves! Having the backlit helps to visualize the fluid levels without having to stick your face/eyes directly OVER the battery filler holes, fumes and such!



    Next just shows the barely 12 volts reading on the voltmeter after putting in the electrolyte.



    These show it first being on the 2 amp charger...and then after it's been on for some 10 or so hours after it's reached it's full charge potential. IT's highly recommended to do this BEFORE you ever put the battery into service.



    And the final voltmeter reading showing a good 13 volts after the charge.



    Now the same battery some 3+ years later, after it sat in the garage for 2 months and allowed to go totally FLAT, and apparently it also ran low on water. I had filled it up just prior to going on the Rally Ride in Sept.! Some of you will also remember that I'm using the Mini-Race Alternator, it does put out a lot more power than the OEM REG/RECT/ALT combo, but I've got a voltmeter on it, and it doesn't go above 14 or so volts while riding, so I don't think it's getting OVERCHARGED while riding, just that the air has been quite dry around here, and it's just slowly evaporated over the last 2 months that it's been sitting....it's NOT been on a trickle/float charger!



    A couple of days prior to this, I had mentioned that I had tried to charge it with the same shown charger, first on 2 amps for a day, and then on 6 amps overnight! Then just let it sit for a day or so until I got new fancy Pulse charger...and so the voltmeter shows not quite 5 volts!



    Put it on the same charger in the 6 amp mode for about an hour.



    And then the voltmeter shows it got up to almost 12 volts....needed to get it up to 10.5 or more before being able to hook up the fancy PULSE charger..needs the 10.5 minimum for it to work...apparently will sense the volts and such.





    The Pulse Charger/Minder has 2 LEDs, left one just verifies that you have it connected to the battery correctly, and the right one shows that it's in Charging mode....it automatically goes into PULSE/Conditioning/Charge mode. You can select to put it in the FLOAT mode with the center button.



    As has been mentioned it can take a few WEEKS for it to work on the sulphates and such. Some of the other research and reading I found stated that the hard crystals that have formed deep in the main base structure of the plates don't come off easily or at all with the PULSE chargers. That the plates are made with a Lead Calcium, and that there is a THIN layer of Calcium Oxide that form between the outer layer of the Paste/Plate, and that the PULSE charger works on THAT layer, and can help increase the conductivity at that level.

    Their research...they built cells within glass containers so that they could see the changes that occur to the plates, as well as then examine them closely afterwards. They found that the PULSE chargers didn't do much to the hard crystals, and that they were only able to bring the batteries up about 20% of capacity once the plates are heavily sulphated !

    SO....I may not be able to actually resurrect this battery to normal potential?
    Automotive starter motors usually draw about 100 amps, and so with batteries that have 600+ CCA capacity allows them to survive and function for several years as they slowly SULPHATE and loose their capacity, and it's only when they(Auto sized batteries) get near or below the 100 CCA range when they finally are considered "DEAD", not strong enough to Start the engine...and this usually takes some 5 years.

    Our batteries are smaller and usually only about 250 or so CCA's. I think our starters don't take as much amperage as a car starter, perhaps 50 or so. And so again with regular usage, the bike batteries slowly sulphate and loose their CCA capacity which many of us have learned/experienced to be about 3 years.

    However, this loss of capacity and sulphation occurs when the batteries are not FULLY charged back up to their capacity when not in use. Once they are fully charged, the electrolyte is mostly high concentration Sulfuric Acid, and can be stored IN THE COLD just fine for quite some time. The cold slows down the self discharge rate, and the high acid level prevents freezing. It's still recommended to give the battery a TOP OFF charge once a month. The higher the acid concentration the less tendency for the battery to sulphate. When the battery is allowed to discharge...the chemical reaction that the Acid does to the lead plates, turns to lead sulphate and water, and free electrons. SO....keeping the battery as fully charged as possible converts the mild layers of lead sulphate back into LEAD and sulfuric acid, but can consume some water when the charging goes too far/overcharge...there's no more sulphate to convert, so it then turns to ELECTROLYSIS of the water and that's when it can "boil" away along with releasing hydrogen and oxygen gasses.

    So....float charging does NOT damage the batteries provided it's enough current to truly keep the battery fully charged, provided it doesn't go into GASSING mode which then runs the electrolyte DRY/below the plate levels.

    T.C.
    T. C. Gresham
    81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
    79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
    History shows again and again,
    How nature points out the folly of men!

    Comment


    • #62
      Hi TC,
      I see you write the change date on your battery too My experience this summer was that after 3 1/2 years exactly the same time as yours my Everstart battery was no longer holding a charge for more than a few days.
      With my planned ride to North Carolina I decided to replace it with another off the shelf at WalMart. I was satisfied I had my moneys worth out of it.
      Most of our motorcycles sit for extended. periods of time which is hard on wet cell batteries.
      Phil
      1981 XS1100 H Venturer ( Addie)
      1983 XJ 650 Maxim
      2004 Kawasaki Concours. ( Black Bear)

      Comment


      • #63
        Correct TC, float chargers do not harm batteries. They are, in fact, good for batteries, and you're also correct that you may not be able to fully resurrect your battery. The entire theory around pulse charging is based on a flawed assumption that lead sulphate crystals vibrate at 3.26hz, and that introducing a harmonic pulse at that frequency will break the crystals down. Problem with that theory is that Resonance is derived from Inductance and Capacitance, and these values change as the battery voltage changes.
        1980 SG. (Sold - waiting on replacement)
        2000 XJR1300. The Real modern XS11. Others are just pretenders.

        Woman (well, my wife anyway) are always on Transmit and never Receive.

        "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be" Albert Einstien.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by TopCatGr58 View Post
          Some of you will also remember that I'm using the Mini-Race Alternator, it does put out a lot more power than the OEM REG/RECT/ALT combo, but I've got a voltmeter on it, and it doesn't go above 14 or so volts while riding, so I don't think it's getting OVERCHARGED while riding, just that the air has been quite dry around here, and it's just slowly evaporated over the last 2 months that it's been sitting....it's NOT been on a trickle/float charger!

          SO....keeping the battery as fully charged as possible converts the mild layers of lead sulphate back into LEAD and sulfuric acid, but can consume some water when the charging goes too far/overcharge...there's no more sulphate to convert, so it then turns to ELECTROLYSIS of the water and that's when it can "boil" away along with releasing hydrogen and oxygen gasses.

          So....float charging does NOT damage the batteries provided it's enough current to truly keep the battery fully charged, provided it doesn't go into GASSING mode which then runs the electrolyte DRY/below the plate levels.

          T.C.
          That may be your problem. You might want to find a way to reduce the voltage at which your alternator reduces it's output. Is the regulator built in?
          14 volts period, is what I would consider the maximum that should be applied to these batteries, especially for hours on end. (Read 'long trips').

          Car size batteries can absorb more overcharging than can bike size, and your auto alternator might be using that as a basis for it's output setting. Ford Model A's didn't use a regulator, they adjusted the generator output to 5 amps or so, and under normal driving usage, that kept the battery charged, and you were expected to check the water periodically. If you constantly made long trips, you were expected to reduce the amp output of the generator, to keep the input/output balance even.

          Great write up, it will be interesting to get the data.


          CZ

          Comment


          • #65
            I wish I had a HF ultrasonic cleaner, I would put the battery in that and see if it could help break up the crystals mechanically??

            I tested the voltage briefly on the battery, and it was above 12....like 12.18, but as I had the dig meter on it, the voltage started dropping 0.01 volt every 15 seconds or so! ( But it's still early in the process..remember folks this will be a several weeks test!!! And I will of course put it both on my load tester as well as see if it has enough oomph to turn the engine over and also drive the ignition system to start!?

            But as stated, even if this battery can't be saved, this advanced pulse charger/maintainer will help me in keeping the NEXT one in much better condition during the off seasons....and YES I will be fixing that switch with a warning LIGHT to help me remember IF I've left it in the energized position. I'm using the same unswitched power source because it's also what provides the power to my AUX lights.

            T.C.
            T. C. Gresham
            81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
            79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
            History shows again and again,
            How nature points out the folly of men!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by TopCatGr58 View Post
              I wish I had a HF ultrasonic cleaner, I would put the battery in that and see if it could help break up the crystals mechanically??


              T.C.
              Interesting concept!
              I don't know if the ultrasonic pulses would transfer through the case and still be effective.
              There are some chemical additives that are used to overcome sulfation.
              EDTA comes to mind.
              http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yu...l#.UpqXaVnn-00
              As with most things, there are pros and cons with that.
              There was another one that I can't think of at the moment. A search on Bing might find something else.
              Then there is the 60 watt lightbulb charger, which is supposed to break down sulfate.
              http://www.alpharubicon.com/elect/3dollarbattggn.htm
              Keep us posted.

              CZ

              Comment


              • #67
                Hey CZ,

                I read about EDTA, but it just totally neutralizes the sulphate to the point that it can't be turned back into Lead and Sulfuric Acid!

                Just an update, after a days worth of Pulse charging, I did a quick LOAD TEST, and it failed miserably! Had a voltage meter on it at the same time, and it dropped to like 7 volts! But it had only been 1 day, so I put it back on the Pulse Charger...it's still showing the SOLID RED charging light.. book says it will blink when it's fully charged and in FLOAT mode! Another thing is that I can see bubbles forming in all of the cells. I felt the case and it's "WARM"....not hot, I can easily hold my hands on it without any sense of needing to remove them burn feeling, so the little 1.3 amp PULSE charger is doing SOMETHING, will check it in a few days for both voltage levels and another LOAD test.

                T.C.
                T. C. Gresham
                81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                History shows again and again,
                How nature points out the folly of men!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Update

                  Okay,

                  Well it took about a week for the pulse charger to finally finish charging and give the green ready light. I then put it on the load tester, and it lasted a couple of seconds, but then dived into the WEAK/BAD zone, and the voltage dropped severely as well. SO....it looks like I killed it when it sat for over a month fully drained, and probably irreversibly sulphated plates! I may play with it some more, running it on my larger 6 AMP charger a few cycles and see, but I'm not holding my breath on this one! 3 years about normal for me with a WET lead acid battery.

                  SO....Unlike MadMaxim/BNE, I'm a bit more of a gambler with regards to trying the SCORPION branded battery. I did a search and found a thread from 2010 from a guy on the ST forum, and he's had a smaller Scorpion battery installed and working for 3 years now with no problems, and several others also posted that they bought/installed Scorpions as well with no problems....except for one guy, but his was a faulty battery and hadn't gone thru the process to get a warranty exchange. The SCORPION company warranties their own stuff....not just leaving it to the dealer to handle it. Batterystuff.com will still handle the warranty process, but the battery actually gets returned to Scorpion for analysis and such. They(Scorpion) speak a good game/Customer Service and quality, not just providing a CHEAPLY PRICED product...they say they know that good word of mouth regarding both quality of their product and service is what will get folks to come back for repeat business.

                  So...I pulled the trigger and ordered one today, probably won't arrive until the weekend. So...I'll keep this thread in mind, and just like Steve on the ST site, I'll post periodic updates to it as part of a Product Review experience and such! We know that many/most of us are cheap bastards and if we can get "QUALITY and Durabilty" from a lesser priced product, we want it.

                  T.C.
                  T. C. Gresham
                  81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                  79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                  History shows again and again,
                  How nature points out the folly of men!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    There is always the old timer "cook the sh!t out of it for an hour" battery rejuvenation method.

                    Aka: high amp charge for an hour.

                    Never seen it work but I know some old timers that swear by it!
                    Nathan
                    KD9ARL

                    μολὼν λαβέ

                    1978 XS1100E
                    K&N Filter
                    #45 pilot Jet, #137.5 Main Jet
                    OEM Exhaust
                    ATK Fork Brace
                    LED Dash lights
                    Ammeter, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, and Volt Meters

                    Green Monster Coils
                    SS Brake Lines
                    Vision 550 Auto Tensioner

                    In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

                    Theodore Roosevelt

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Hey TC,
                      You are in a position to try some more experiments with the bad battery.
                      Put it back on the sulfate busting charger, and let it get up to voltage again. When it is up to blink voltage, take it off and hook a headlight bulb up to it. Monitor the voltage and time to get down to 12 volts. Put it back on the charger and repeat the process a time or two, and see if the time to get down to 12 volts increases. If it does, keep doing the charge /discharge cycle until you think it might be salvageable, or totally cooked.
                      Or go inside and have some eggnog.

                      CZ

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CaptonZap View Post

                        Or go inside and have some eggnog.

                        CZ
                        Best advice so far.... The battery's lunched TC. Throw it and be happy with your new one.
                        1980 SG. (Sold - waiting on replacement)
                        2000 XJR1300. The Real modern XS11. Others are just pretenders.

                        Woman (well, my wife anyway) are always on Transmit and never Receive.

                        "A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be" Albert Einstien.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I'm quite happy with my new battery,which BTW is made by Deka. Didnt say so in the ad but when it arrived it was in a box with their logo on it. Battery mart got it to me in less than a week and free delivery too....and a battery under 100 bucks...
                          TC...from what I have read the Scorpions are doing well with the ST-owners so I would expect you to have a similar experiences...
                          1980 XS650G Special-Two
                          1993 Honda ST1100

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            battery

                            Originally posted by madmax-im View Post
                            so am looking for a sealed gel type...looked in the archives but the information there is out of date...so whats a good brand of sealed battery and how cheap can i get it for? TIA...
                            I went to O'reilly auto parts and bought an AGM battery. Maint. free. About $70. Much stronger than original.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              $70 sounds like a good buy. What model battery is it and how many CCA.
                              Marty (in Mississippi)
                              XS1100SG
                              XS650SK
                              XS650SH
                              XS650G
                              XS6502F
                              XS650E

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Hey Marty,

                                I just searched Oreilly's, their brand is SuperStart( They did have a DEKA!).
                                The Model # that's similar to ours is the ETX-18L with 340 CCA's, and it sells/list for $97.99 plus core! A smaller one, ETX-15 for $79 only has 220 CCA's. It could have been an instore SALE??

                                T.C.

                                Okay, a "NET" Search revealed this info from www.bestbatterytips.com

                                Super start batteries are sold at O’reilly Auto Parts, and CSK Auto. O’reilly Auto Parts and CSK Auto combined to become the third largest auto parts store chain in United States. Falling under the O’reilly umbrella is Checker Auto Parts, Schuck’s Auto Supply, Kragen Auto Parts, and Murray’s Discount Auto Store. The battery of choice at O’reilly Auto Parts, and CSK Auto stores is a Super Start Battery. Super Start batteries are manufactured by East Penn Manufacturing. East Penn is well know for their Dependable Deka battery brand. East Penn manufacturing is located in Lyon Station Pennsylvania, and have been manufacturing batteries sense 1946. The Super Start Premium battery has a 12 month free replacement and a 60 month pro rate warranty. The Super Start Extreme battery offers 3 year free replacement and 84 month pro rate warranty. The Super Start Premium battery warranty is nothing to get excited about, however the Super Start Extreme is a very industry competitive battery warranty.
                                T. C. Gresham
                                81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                                79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                                History shows again and again,
                                How nature points out the folly of men!

                                Comment

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