My Battery is toast

[CaptonZap]

Well said, Brian

When I was in economy mode, I took a 1 amp charger and hooked it to a 24 hour timer, and adjusted the "time on" period so as to maintain about 13 volts. The problem was that if the power went off, (someone tripped on the extension cord) and the timer was on charge, the battery was drained by backflow through the Harbor freight charger.
After that, I bit the bullet and bought a Battery Minder, (not a Battery Tender) and have used them (I bought more) on anything that doesn't get used a lot.
If you double the life of the battery, you have paid for the charger.

CZ

[motoman]

For those that say that a battery tender is no good, i suspect theyve had a bad experience, or know someone that has, from a cheap one. Theyre not all created equal, and the price reflects that. Pay Peanuts and youll get Monkeys.



Same applies to batteries. Not to say the higher priced name brand won't short cells prematurely, as I've had it happen to a couple over a few decades. But there ARE different quality levels internally from manufaturer to manufacturer(IIRC, only five worldwide), AND those same manufacturers also produce them for others lesser known cheaper name brands, according to that sellers specs.

Lead acid wet cell batteries like to be 'used' not shelved. They are also only as good as many times as they will 'take' a charge. I attribute the 'used' part to the longgivity of the Exide in my ST having the factory digital clock that is on all the time. Nine years, and is just now showing signs of cranking the starter a bit slow when bike sets for several months. Over those years, I had that battery on a 1.5amp one time due to bike setting for long periods of time.

The Interstate in the XS is on its 4th year, and re-charged one time so far due to bike setting in garage for almost a year not ridden. It has nothing hooked up 'using' the battery while setting. The previous Interstate battery started showing tell-tale signs of an upcoming cell short/failure at 5yrs. Even though it load tested holding steady at 10.5V for the 30sec. specified amp load, likelyhood of it leaving me roadside 200mi. from nowhere were fair to good.

The AGM's have become popular in several replacement applications. They are still a lead-acid wet cell battery. The absorbant glass mat has little to do with vibration, and EVERYTHING to due with electron flow, slowing lower level of flow down.

Overall, looks like the wet cell lead acid batteries that get 'used' regularly, whether it be from starting and riding the bike or a portion of an amp draw from an accessory seem to have a longer life.

[b.walker5]

The electrician in me has to agree to disagree with some of your points.

Not to say that your personal experiences arent valid, but theres absolutely no reason, in fact plenty of evidence to the contrary, why an AGM shouldnt last as long, or longer than a standard wet cell. As you said, there basically no different than a wet cell. except the electrolytic is held in a fibre glass matt right next to the plate. This allows for lower discharge, as youve indicated, but it also allows for higher current flow, faster charges rates, and less susceptibility to vibration, which as we know, along side poor maintenance, is a major cause of sulphation.

[jetmechmarty]

My seat of the pants experience says AGM is better. I rarely charge my batteries. I just ride the bikes. The AGM batteries are serving me far better than any flooded wet cell (or whatever you call it) ever did. FAR FAR BETTER! YMMV.

[madmax-im]

great discussion and now that the $ is in the bank...I've decided to go with this one...as noted earlier... Thanks to all for their comments and suggestions...
http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Cra...xj1100-battery

[b.walker5]

The little charger shown with the battery would be a good investment as well, if you dont already have one. It appears to be a proper float charger, and will keep your battery in good nick over your winter storage period. (we dont have one here, our riding season is 12 months long)

[motoman]

The little charger shown with the battery would be a good investment as well, if you dont already have one. It appears to be a proper float charger, and will keep your battery in good nick over your winter storage period. (we dont have one here, our riding season is 12 months long)

It is for Madmax-im also...........if one can take the summer humidity.

[madmax-im]

It is for Madmax-im also...........if one can take the summer humidity.

already have an adequate charger see above...and yeah i can ride all year round...if i want to... and i dont winterize my bikes down here either

[TopCatGr58]

Hijack alert!!

Hey folks,

Okay, I'm honestly admitting to hijacking this thread, but it is on topic!

Okay, a while back I had a headlight relay failure with regards to the ALT trigger wire, so I bypassed it, ran a switch to the handlebar to throw the relay to turn on the headlights. That switch was powered with an all the time hot wire, not controlled/switched by the ignition key switch.

This summer/fall after I had rigged up the switch, I had left it in the ON position, not knowing that it would draw power from the battery to energize the headlight relay? I ran my now 2 year old standard battery DEAD! I was able to put it on my charger and got it back up to essentially full strength, worked fine while I attended the FALL Rally.

Got the bike home, unloaded and parked it. I thought I had remembered to turn the headlight relay switch back to the OFF position, but I may have forgotten again! But it's been over a month or so since I had gotten back, and hadn't run the bike so I don't know how long the battery had been drained dead. We were starting to get some moderately cold weather for our region and I was wanting to "top off" the charge to help it endure the colder weather storage.

But to my surprise I found the battery totally DEAD. So..I'm assuming that it's been for several weeks or more, and from my understanding this is when they form SULPHATES on the plates which essentially truly kills them so that they will not take a charge, or if they do, it will only be a little surface charge and will not have the amp depth to function properly!

I put it on the charger at the 2 amp level, and the next day, almost NOTHING from it...have a pair of aux driving light I can switch on to check to see if the battery will work. I then put it on the 6 amp mode overnight, next day the aux lights would work, so I put it back in 2 amp mode, and that evening again almost NOTHING.

So..I'm assuming I've sulphated and truly killed this battery prematurely!?
I haven't searched the "net" yet, but remember reading about some special chargers that use some PULSE technology to try to blast/vibrate the sulphate from the plates??? Any suggestions in trying to resurrect this battery?? Tapping it with a rubber mallet to shake the sulphate from the plates???

Another surprising thing I noticed while I still have the battery in the bike/harness, was that once I removed the power from the charger, I noticed this strange gurgling sound coming from under my mini-race-alt cover, and when I put my hand on the cover, it was slightly WARM..not hot?? This mini-alt is the ONE WIRE directly to the battery design, and it has built in reg/rect. I'm wondering if due to the resistance of the now dead and possibly sulphated battery, that the charging current was backfeeding to the mini-alt, and hopefully wasn't frying the reg/rect components????

Anyways, I'll be removing the battery from the frame before attempting any additional chargings of it.

T.C.

[b.walker5]

Some chargers 'claim' they can resurrect a completely flat battery, and to be fair, some of them can, but it's usually on a battery that has been run flat i.e. below 1.0v, and is recharged immediately. A battery thats been dead for some weeks is likely to stay dead, and even if you do manage to get some charge in, the likelihood is that it wont hold it. If it's a wet cell, there is a battery conditioner available, which is basically a little bottle of sulphuric acid, which is supposed to revive them, but from my experience, it's only a short term fix, and more often than not is only delaying the inevitable.

Bottom line is sulphated plates is terminal, and replacement is the only real option.

If your going to keep the relay switch in place, I would be rewiring it through the key, to remove the need for memory.

[CaptonZap]

Howdy TC

If you finances can handle it, buy one of these

http://batteryminders.com/12-volt-maintenance-charger-desfulator-1500

If the battery is savable, this will do it. It is not an instantaneous process, so let it set for a few weeks. Also, the battery has to be above 10.5 volts for it to work. If you can put 10 amps to the battery for a few minutes, (watch the heat buildup), you can sometimes slough off some of the sulfate, and get the voltage to come up.
I have also put another charger on it to bring the voltage up, and hooked the BM charger in parallel with it.
I have a Variac with a bridge rectifier that I use for various purposes, so I can jack the voltage up to whatever it takes to get the amps I need. You might have to improvise.
(Car alternator with the regulator disconnected and a jumper wire from the battery to the field?)
If you don't save it, you have a charger that will prolong the life of your new battery.
And with some jumper wires connected to all the small batteries in you garage, you can keep them all topped up with one charger.
One good point is that the charger is under warrantee for a number of years, (ask them the number), made in the USA. I had them exchange one that was 6 months past expiration of the warrantee, which I thought was a nice gesture.

CZ

p.s. Wire that thing properly.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Brian and CZ,

Well, today I've been doing a lot of NET research, first learning the basic chemical reactions involved in a lead/acid battery, the formation of the lead sulphates, and such, what kills a lead/acid battery of the life of the battery...the formation of the harder lead/sulphate crystals that don't break down easily back into lead and sulfuric acid components with regular charging. Found/Read about the fellow Couper in 2000 that developed the PULSE charger that uses the high frequency high voltage low amperage pulses that attack the hardened crystals without overheating the rest of the plates and such. Found links to electronic hobbyist type sites where folks have built their own pulse conditioner, but that's too complicated for me.

CZ, thanks for the link, that is the brand of the least expensive Conditioner/charger/minder that I found, but that one is a more expensive later model. Northern tool still has their cheaper earlier version that is still from the same company, quality device, and with a local Northern Tool I can save SHIPPING!!! Same price on Ebay but with ~$8.00 S&H.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...2201_200332201

Yes, I learned that this takes quite some time to work, but it's now winter, and I'm not riding the bike now, so I have no problem with plugging it in and letting it sit for several weeks. But I'll do a quick charge of the battery to see if it can take a surface charge and have the minimum voltage that will show that there's enough plate surface to be able to recover/condition with the PULSE technique.

This type of Minder which has the ability to break down the lead sulphate crystals sounds like the newer type that will NOT damage batteries vs. the older simpler just trickle charging types that can let the lead sulphate crystals form over the years, and may also be why some folks feel that they are bad for batteries. Lead acid batteries will form these crystals just through normal use/discharge/recharging cycles.

Will let folks know what I find, what I get, and how it works out!

T.C.

[b.walker5]

Would be very interested in hearing the outcome of this, in particular, how long the battery lasts after 'resurrecting' it.

Youre quite correct. Most people dont know the difference between a 'trickle' charger, which charges at a constant low current, and doesnt shut off, and a 'float' charger, which is what youre looking at.

A worthy read for anyone with battery issues, or for those who dont want them.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

[madmax-im]

Interesting Hijack TC...whatever else you do pls rewire that switch...On a sidenote... I ordered my battery from Battery Mart on Weds and its scheduled for delivery sometime today...coming from Winchester VA...so if it weren't for the holiday I would have had it in 1 day...and free shipping...whats not to love?
Good luck TC on your quest at battery redemption...keep us updated...

[madmax-im]

After reading about this type of charger i think i will hit the local Northern tool and pick up one...it can maintain up to 4 batteries...so that works fine for my 2 bikes...Thanks for the FYI TC, Brian and CZ...