Shift Pawls

[donebysunday]

¿Will the above same washer location swap give more engagement of the dogs of 1st gear, also; Or is there some other, different "washer" location, or change, that will give greater engagement for the dogs of 1st gear?

I found a couple threads on these Mc Master 1mm shims I bought Not sure if I should use them on 1st gear ?
Here is part of one of the threads with a link to it.
Done };~)

I may be wrong in my thinking, but with 6 dogs engaging it and the gear being solid instead of cut-out like the rest of them, they intended this gear to be a bit stouter and handle more stress than the rest. It seems that the washer being thinner may help if it gets 1st closer, but the dogs and 4th gear can only come so far, then they hit that spring clip keeper. So 1st would have to come closer to the dogs. The parts all fit together pretty solidly, so I think that if you took 1mm away from the washer between 1st and 4th, to keep the middle drive gear and 1st from wallowing back and forth, you'd have to put another 1mm washer on the back side of the middle drive between the clip on the outside of that gear and the clip out there to take up the slack. This would essentially move the middle drive gear and 1st gear 1mm closer to 4th.

I wonder if you can buy a 1mm thick washer this size? I'd like to try it sometime. I don't think it would be enough to worry about the dogs and 1st not disengaging... you're not talking much movement. BUT.. there's not much "Meat" those dogs are contacting... so 1mm might make a BIG difference. I just went and checked, and neither washer on either set of gears I have has any wear to it, so it's not like their taking a beating in there.

Any other thoughts?

Tod
Link to this thread http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14621

[DGXSER]

So here is my experiences to date, and this on 5 different XS11 engines to date. Every one I have pulled the gears from to do the dremel repair has not had any issue with the countershaft bolt being loose or eaten. One did have the oil pump idler gear come off and needed replacing, one other had the C-clip that holds the oil pump idler gear on loose in the pan, but the gear was fine and in place.

Over the years I have been a member here I have seen a lot of discussion about the removal of the hardened casing of the gears, and a lot of discussion about shifting of the washer on 2nd gear and the C-clip riding against the gear. To date, I am not aware of anyone finding any evidence that the gears wear quicker after being dremeled, or that the C-clip or the gear show any wear patterns from the clip riding against the gear. Reality is that 2nd gear rotates with the shaft and the clip, so they are relatively stationary to each other throughout operation.

To your question OldNorton, There is a washer on the fourth gear side of first that could be moved. I do not recall anyone ever doing it. I am also not aware of any one installing the 1 MM shims mentioned on first gear. As long as Tod is correct and they do not cause interference between 1st and fourth in operation when not engaged, I would think there could be no harm in it, and there may be an advantage.

I will also add that to date I have not heard of anyone that performed the dremel repair on an tranny having to go back in and repeat it.

There are many XS11 owners who have never needed to perform this repair, so it is not an across the board needed modification.

[donebysunday]

To your question OldNorton, There is a washer on the fourth gear side of first that could be moved. I do not recall anyone ever doing it. I am also not aware of any one installing the 1 MM shims mentioned on first gear. As long as Tod is correct and they do not cause interference between 1st and fourth in operation when not engaged, I would think there could be no harm in it, and there may be an advantage.

I will also add that to date I have not heard of anyone that performed the dremel repair on an tranny having to go back in and repeat it.

There are many XS11 owners who have never needed to perform this repair, so it is not an across the board needed modification.

Thank You Don !
I might try this first gear double ( 1 on each side ) 1mm washer/s. On the other hand if you look at my post (#8 ) it looks like at least in the bike they were in the 1st gear was being pretty well engaged, yes ? The next thing is the older gears had the double row bearing too, if that makes any difference ?
Then see my post (#12 ) you will see how little of the dogs were actually engaged. Think I should clean them up a bit now that I've done the washer switch ?

Thank You So Much ! Done };~)

[trbig]

I've never had to redo a Dremmel fix, and doubt anyone will, because there'll really not be anything there to grind on. Like I was saying, if you look at the dogs of 5th after they've been run a while after the grinding, you'll sit there and scratch your head as to why they're even working. The dogs just become blobs of metal with the leading edge shiny and shaped like the slots. Bevelling the gears (Back cutting) is also a waste of time and material. After very little time, the bevel is gone and you've just got a blob of metal with a flat contact point that it's been formed into. You'd be better off keeping all the material you can on the dogs and just cut them at a 90 degree angle.

As for moving 1st closer with a shim, I have tried this and reported on it quite a while back. I found some washers that were the exact size as the stock one, but exactly half the thickness. I placed one of these behind 4th and one in front, essentially moving 4th gear half the washer thickness distance to first for a deeper engagement. It was a failed experiment. When in 4th gear, 1st and 4th made contact slightly and would grind. It wiped first gear out in just a few hundred miles.

My next experiment was going to be trying to re-harden the dogs after grinding. Ben even sent me a set to try it on since I was going through gears and motors fairly regularly, but have apparently built a motor to last this last go 'round and haven't been back in there for anything really major.

So, I've given my opinion and think that anyone doing a gear grind as a pre-emptive strike vs a last resort makes absolutely zero sense to me. Hardened gears are going to last you the longest, so the longer you keep them that way the better... especially if you're prone to right wrist convulsions like me. You can't UN-grind them once you do and they aren't making any more of them. If you do the washer swap, you'll never have to worry about 2nd by looking at those gears. Someone good with these gear fixes can do a set in the afternoon, so it's not like you're saving yourself some huge giant expensively tedious endeavor in the future or something that's going to leave you stranded on the side of the road if it does go bad later.

Just my 2 cents.. if it's worth even that.

[DGXSER]

Hey Done,

On the older engines, as has been stated, first gear was not as much an issue as second gear. But both have been known to have problems. Seen some with 1, 2, and 3rd problems (other on this site, none I have worked on).

So, the gears you got from Andreas look be pretty good condition. The best way I know to determine how much of an issue first has had is to look at the shift fork, and also look at the metal wedge between the grooves in first where the dogs would slide across if they skipped. Some wear is bound to be there as the nature of the beast is such that the gear will slid across to drop into the slots. But if you can see wear, any visible depression in the metal where it slides, I take that as an indication the gear has been skipping.

2nd will probably be fine with just the washer swap, more than a few folks who know their rectum from a worm hole have stated that just the washer swap has worked fine for them for years.

All that said, reality is the only way to know for sure is to try it and see how it performs. So...back to the question of how much do you want to avoid pulling them again IF it turns out the washer swap is not enough, or IF first gear is not as solid as it looks? Compare that answer to how much you want to avoid cutting the gears. There is your answer.

[donebysunday]

Thanks Guys !!!!!

Leaving this set of gears with the 2nd gear washer swap and back together it goes.

Done };~)

[3Phase]

Danger Will Robinson!

Hey, Done,

Stick with the 2nd gear washer swap if you can and like Tod says, don't grind the dogs/slots unless you have to do it. I tried the 1st gear washer/shim trick when I rebuilt the engine in Columbo and there's a little more to it and it's actually kind of dangerous.

Among a few other issues: changing the 1st gear shimming brought 1st gear a few fine frog hairs too close to 4th. In Neutral with the engine running I could hear and feel 1st and 4th clicking against each other and trying to 'grab' 1st gear. I took it apart, put in the original shims and left it alone after that.

.

[donebysunday]

Hey, Done,

Stick with the 2nd gear washer swap if you can and like Tod says, don't grind the dogs/slots unless you have to do it. I tried the 1st gear washer/shim trick when I rebuilt the engine in Columbo and there's a little more to it and it's actually kind of dangerous.

Among a few other issues: changing the 1st gear shimming brought 1st gear a few fine frog hairs too close to 4th. In Neutral with the engine running I could hear and feel 1st and 4th clicking against each other and trying to 'grab' 1st gear. I took it apart, put in the original shims and left it alone after that.

.

Ouch ! Another tear down and re-do, glad I did not do that. We will see about not grinding the dogs on the 5th gear ? You can see in the pics of post 12 how they have been grabbing.

[3Phase]

Well, you kind of took pictures of the wrong side of the 5th gear dogs (two deceleration faces, only one acceleration), with no real close-ups of the 2nd gear slots. You might get by with the washer swap if you shift with authority.

From what I can see in the pictures, the deceleration sides of the dogs and slots look good but the acceleration sides aren't so good.

The acceleration sides of the 2nd gear slots look like they have been... gnawed upon.

The one acceleration face on the 5th gear dog in your photographs looks like it's got a groove hammered into it that's just started to go through the hardened outer metal shell of the gear and into the soft inner metal cheese underneath it. There's also what looks like a small bit of metal that's been forced out of the groove enough to stick out and get hammered down too.


Shift it like you mean it!

.

[donebysunday]

Well, you kind of took pictures of the wrong side of the 5th gear dogs (two deceleration faces, only one acceleration), with no real close-ups of the 2nd gear slots. You might get by with the washer swap if you shift with authority.

From what I can see in the pictures, the deceleration sides of the dogs and slots look good but the acceleration sides aren't so good.

The acceleration sides of the 2nd gear slots look like they have been... gnawed upon.

The one acceleration face on the 5th gear dog in your photographs looks like it's got a groove hammered into it that's just started to go through the hardened outer metal shell of the gear and into the soft inner metal cheese underneath it. There's also what looks like a small bit of metal that's been forced out of the groove enough to stick out and get hammered down too.


Shift it like you mean it!

.

Exactly why I posted those pics but no one seemed to think twice about them. I can still pull that 5th gear out and dremel it, I think maybe the best thing to do at this point before I button it up !

Thank You !!!!! Done };~)

[3Phase]

From reading another thread I see you've already had the church bells ring when you got the gear stack back in the engine.

Don't undercut just 5th gear, you'll mess up both gears if you only undercut one gear. What's already gone is gone but you can see in the pictures you took where the 5th gear dogs have been fitting into the 2nd gear slots. Just use the Dremel to clean up any rough spots like that hammered metal hangnail-looking thing on 5th gear without cutting away any more of the hardened metal than necessary.

Run a candle around the 5th gear dogs to get them nice and black, then stick the gear back in the case without buttoning everything back up and use the shift lever to put the transmission in 2nd gear. Do not use your hand to engage 5th gear with 2nd gear, you want the shift lever, shift drum and shift fork to do it just like it will when you're riding.

When the transmission is in 2nd gear, rotate 2nd gear clockwise and counter-clockwise so the accel/decel slots in 2nd gear hit the accel/decel faces of the 5th gear dogs.

Take 5th gear back out of the case and LOOK at it closely. The marks in the carbon from the candle will show the new contact areas and you can compare the new with the old to see if the dogs are going far enough into 2nd gear and getting a good bite on the slots with the washer swap.

.

[donebysunday]

Thank You !
Yes it's one of the older trans that had used the double row bearing.





I'll take more if needed, not sure of the detail on these ? TIA ! Done };~)

So by the looks of it I'll need to mic up the dogs on 5th and take them down, at a 90° to the gear. Because of the sharp cut into the dogs made by the slot I would think the slots are fine. Yes ?

Thank You Scott ! Done };~)

[3Phase]

You're there looking at the gears, not me! At one time 2nd gear was obviously sharp enough to groove with the big dogs but now it looks like they're beaten out of round and and the slots look like they've spalled into a ski jump.

So compare and contrast the old/new contact areas and engagement depths of the decel sides with the accel sides using candle soot, then listen to the intro to this Led Zeppelin song while you imagine your transmission is a Yamaha drum kit with 1st/4th and 2nd/5th as large/small high-hat cymbals:-

Rock And Roll

Is your kit strong enough to even make it through the intro or will it crack, bang, and skip? Do you think it can be set up, tuned and made healthy enough to hang in there for just one more song, the whole concert, or the rest of the tour?

.

[trbig]

Just use the Dremel to clean up any rough spots like that hammered metal hangnail-looking thing on 5th gear without cutting away any more of the hardened metal than necessary.

You mean the frikin blobs of grease there? I just can't believe how anxious all of you are to get this guy to grinding on his gears for some reason. It's insane. The slots in 2nd look especially good, so why would you tell him to grind those also? You grind second gear slots to square up rounded slot edges, so you want him to just start hacking away on those for some reason also?

Do what you want, Done, but I just have to say you're getting some really destructive, unneeded, and irreversable advice here.. but it's your bike. Your gears are going to work just fine without grinding and I don't understand why you'd need to "Shift it like you mean it" when moving the washer is going to give you about double the contact area. Any contact spots on the gears that someone sees from some fuzzy pics isn't going to be the same contact spots after the washer swap, and even if you didn't swap it, it still makes no sense that you'd have to shift any different than at any other time.

3phase, I hope you don't take this personally. I know you mean well and are only trying to help. I just can't understand "fixing" something that's not broke.

[donebysunday]

Wait I think maybe valid point, better pics could help ?







Then the measurements -