oh no! the dreaded oil thread

[motoman]

Hey guys, just had a UOA done on the oil from one of my bikes, and to make it brief, my metal readings went up across the board (iron, copper, nickel) a noticeable amount compared to the previous UOA on the same bike.

I DID NOT change the oil filter at the last oil change, I generally do it every other change.

Would/could the fact I did not change the filter cause the metal readings to go up noticeably (from residual left in the filter/remaining oil), all else being equal?

Opinions?

A good mineral diet keeps it healthy..........so which one got the 'healthy' kudo's?

[Bonz]

The ZRX 1200 oil was tested. I ran 15w-40 Rotella in it for the first analysis, went 4100 miles, great report. Changed the oil, w/o filter change, ran 5w-40 Rotella Synthetic for 5460 miles, metal numbers mentioned in the first post jumped up to basically double what they were.

For the sake of curiosity is there enough residual oil in the filter housing and filter to carry over metals from one oil change to another, that could have caused the readings to go up?

I'll do another UOA after this change interval, I have changed the filter so I'll see in about 4k miles, hopefull by the end of the summer and update.

In the meantime, any thoughts and opinions are welcome.

[motoman]

The ZRX 1200 oil was tested. I ran 15w-40 Rotella in it for the first analysis, went 4100 miles, great report. Changed the oil, w/o filter change, ran 5w-40 Rotella Synthetic for 5460 miles, metal numbers mentioned in the first post jumped up to basically double what they were.

For the sake of curiosity is there enough residual oil in the filter housing and filter to carry over metals from one oil change to another, that could have caused the readings to go up?

I'll do another UOA after this change interval, I have changed the filter so I'll see in about 4k miles, hopefull by the end of the summer and update.

In the meantime, any thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Might wanna read thread #4........and I'm a +1 on that! Easy fix so U can sleep at nite.......20-50Vavoline and forget about it..........see how easy that is?.

[Bonz]

That didn't answer the question...

Motoman, are you a Democrat at the IRS?

What is the chance the remaining oil from the previous oil change in the filter housing/sump/filter had enough normal metal elements to contribute to a noticeably higher metal count on iron, copper and nickel in the most recent UOA?

Anyone?

[CaptonZap]

Strictly from a logic point of view, fresh oil would have fewer contaminates than the old oil left in the filter, so until you had the same amount of miles, at the same wear rate, the oil should show less metal. The amount of oil left in the filter and galleries would not amount to much of a percentage of the total in a full charge of oil, so I would not give it much credit for the increase.
The fact that you went to a synthetic for the second round, and another 1360 miles farther, would give me something to ponder. That is almost a third farther than the first mileage.
Another thing to think about is the detergency of the synthetic. Either the oil doesn't provide the same protection against wear, or it has flushed out a lot of packed in sludge.
What kind of oil is in there now? If synthetic, then a test at the 4100 mile interval should give the same readings as the first round with the 15W40, if the protection is the same. If it is more, I would consider 5W40 as a bit to thin for use.
For a mathematical guesstimate, the oil left in the filter and system, and that depends on if you did it hot or cold, should amount to no more than 10% of the total oil. So add 10% to the contaminates and that should be the final amount, if the wear didn't increase, and the mileage was the same.
It could also point out the importance of changing oil more frequently in engines that thrash the engine oil through the gear box, which reduces the long chain molecules, and thus the effective "weight" of the oil.
Gotta love oil threads.

CZ

[Bonz]

The other factor is I did a full valve check/adjustment and changed/swapped 12/16 shims on the 16v head. This was about 900 miles into the oil change with 5w-40 Rotella Syn.

The bike was open for the better part of a week as well. When I put it back together, I did not put any add'l oil on the cam lobes/rockers other than to crank the engine over with the plug wires off to get some oil, theoretically, pumped up into the valve train.

That may be where I am seeing the wear metals from, the wearing in of the surfaces after the valve adjust.

Next analysis will tell me whether that was the case or not, as I agree with CZ that there wouldn't be a higher metal concentration based on percentages, unless wear metal concentration would be higher in a filter housing or the filter itself and then re-distribute itself into the new oil. Not likely.

I'm going with door #1 for increased initial wear after the valve adjust and my dumb-ass for not slathering the whole top end with oil before buttoning it up.

[crazy steve]

The ZRX 1200 oil was tested. I ran 15w-40 Rotella in it for the first analysis, went 4100 miles, great report. Changed the oil, w/o filter change, ran 5w-40 Rotella Synthetic for 5460 miles, metal numbers mentioned in the first post jumped up to basically double what they were.

It's the change from 15W to 5W. Air-cooled motors have sloppier piston-to-cylinder clearances, and need a thicker oil that 'sticks' to the walls better. The walls are splash-oiled, so you don't want a too-fast runoff. That's why I don't even like using 15W, these bikes were designed for 20W. I've seen this same thing in tests on Harleys.

To visualize this, throw tomato juice on a wall, then use tomato sauce. Which will leave the thicker film?....

[Bonz]

The ZRX is liquid cooled, pretty tight tolerances relative to the XS lump.

The 5W-40 Syn had the same viscosity as the 15w-40 in the UOA results at 100 deg C.

Wouldn't that say the 5w-40 synthetic held up better relatively speaking and would offer no less protection than the 15w-40? I mean, if the viscosity is the same when hot, they couldn't be very different at cold start up, at least at the end of the test.

[crazy steve]

The ZRX is liquid cooled, pretty tight tolerances relative to the XS lump..

Yes, but is it at tight as a car or truck?

I don't know about the viscosity test, but I have seen multiple tests with thinner oil in other bikes and almost without fail more piston scuffing was seen. Simple to find out, go back to a 15w50 or 20w50 and see if the numbers drop back to where they were (hoping the walls/pistons aren't already damaged...)

[Bonz]

It doesn't use a bit of oil, that tells me the internals are doing well.

I still am wondering if a higher than normal reading on the metals could have been from above said valve adjust, and not doing more than what I did to pre-lube the valvetrain.

Thanks for all the input guys!

[motoman]

That didn't answer the question...

Motoman, are you a Democrat at the IRS?

What is the chance the remaining oil from the previous oil change in the filter housing/sump/filter had enough normal metal elements to contribute to a noticeably higher metal count on iron, copper and nickel in the most recent UOA?

Anyone?

First question respnse..............Really? Second question response.........probable obviously, not doing the same thing twice(filter change, mileage)pretty much invalidated the test anyways and causes loss of sleep. Valve adjustment made, but spun over several times to re-pressurize oil system......highly unlikely the cause, as that is no different than if the scoot sat for several weeks and then was started and ridden. Definitely tighter tollerances on the newer scoot.......by design, and even more so on the newer ones having Teflon coated piston skirts, and even some with ceramic lined cyl. in the high performance world. Friction IS the component killer. CZ's respone bout covered it. Several yrs. back on here, a number of members had gone to using the diesel spcific oils, as they had no friction modifiers added then. Late in the scenario, I decided to use the Shell Rotella in my XS. After a 350mile ride south of here, bike using a bit over a quart(previously would use a quart in 1500mi. at slab speeds), slight clutch slippage, and added valve train noise, could'nt get that crap out of there quick enough. Found looking at container, and other diesel specific oil that friction modifiers were added bout that same time, to better accomadate a broader selling market, and to improve injector lubrication, specially associated with the PowerStroke motors. Remember, even tho diesels are under heavy bearing loads from high compressin,ect., the rpm's are low. As Steve stated, the cling factor likely plays a huge part in proper lubrication with high revving motors, and keeps it in the motor instead of dissapearing on the exhaust stroke. BTW, even tho trbig and I have had our differences, I could not agree with him more, as my Venturer's motor, IMO would have met it's demise if I had left that Rotella 'diesel' oil in there.

[Bonz]

Thanks Brant, good posting there!

[Bonz]

Now with regard to the valve adjust...

Humor me... Maybe, just maybe new shims of different thickness cause the rocker to be contacted by the cam lobe in a different way. I mean, the cam is still in it's fixed location but the rocker is a fraction of a fraction different by any measure. It's a small margin mind you, but none the less it is not exactly like it had bedded in for the previous 10,000+ miles. Relative to the day in, day out wear of a valve train, changing shims could be considered a major event in terms of changing relationships of cams/rockers, per se.

Seems to me there could be some new "break-in" that takes place. And it wouldn't take much for iron to go from 13 ppm to 25 ppm in a 5465 miles, given the 25% longer OCI.

[motoman]

Thanks Brant, good posting there!

No problem,,,,,,,,if I wasn't messin' with ya, you'd likely think there was somethin' wrong.......

[motoman]

Now with regard to the valve adjust...

Humor me... Maybe, just maybe new shims of different thickness cause the rocker to be contacted by the cam lobe in a different way. I mean, the cam is still in it's fixed location but the rocker is a fraction of a fraction different by any measure. It's a small margin mind you, but none the less it is not exactly like it had bedded in for the previous 10,000+ miles. Relative to the day in, day out wear of a valve train, changing shims could be considered a major event in terms of changing relationships of cams/rockers, per se.

Seems to me there could be some new "break-in" that takes place. And it wouldn't take much for iron to go from 13 ppm to 25 ppm in a 5465 miles, given the 25% longer OCI.

It's a Kaway..............haven't a clue...........