Interesting 79F

[Bonz]

Thanks Motoman, hope you and all the boys out there had a good Thanksgiving.

Been getting after the new to me 80G, and the neglected maintenance. Here's the update as I watch the Patriots CRUSH the Jets.

MD/FD fluid was old looking, and each drain plug has the magnetic tip, covered with the typical black snot, but otherwise the the respective fluids had no bits or pieces, which would be a bad thing...

I've run the beast a couple times up on the centerstand in gear (sitting on bike, front brake ON) to at least circulate the old fluids a little bit before draining them since the bike really isn't rideable at this point to warm things up.

Each time, I noticed a couple drips on the garage floor that coincide with one of the hoses coming out of the oil cooler. With that, it looks like noting more than needing to tighten the hose clamp, but it did help me see this...

The oil was very thin, and smelled very much like gasoline. So, opened the oil fill cap, and man, did it ever smell of gasoline... Drained the oil, very thin. Dropped the filter housing, oil in there seemed even thinner, but not sure that was actually the case.

With my 80SG, when a float needle sticks, it dumps some back out the airbox, and the airbox on the G is dry as a bone after the few times I have run it and let it sit afterward while the fluids being changed are draining.

As an aside, it has a K&N with (4) 1/2" holes drilled in the cover, in the appropriate location, and the bike has no snorkel. The air filter is dry, per se, verifying to me there is no gas draining back.

When I looked at the bike the first time, the owners son tried to start it, and I am sure it flooded out, as it would not fire. I could smell gas out the pipes, and the battery was low so possibly fuel could have gotten in the crankcase as the engine was not firing and he spent a while trying to get it started. Once he put a charger on the battery, I took over the starting duties and got it going after getting a feel for how this bike wanted to be treated with the choke lever and throttle.

After the sale of the bike, it was trailered to my house, however it did have 4 more miles on the odo than when I looked at it. The owner told me he had taken it out for a short ride to get it warm before trailering it, so it would have a little heat in it when he got to my house so it would start easier as final proof it was a running bike, I guess.

I'm gonna take the carbs off and go through them, just the right thing to do at some point in the rehab process. However I will have the next couple days to do all the other maintenance that will make it rideable, and would like to ride it before delving into the carbs, to get a baseline feel for the bike.

Question: Do you guys think I'll just be contaminating new oil by doing this? Or does my diagnosis make sense in terms of it running sloppy rich due to the liberal use of the choke, and he probably rode it with the choke on for all I know before trailering it to me.

For what it's worth, I ran it with the airbox off for a few minutes and when I started it as such, the bike wanted to rev it's tits off with half choke as soon as it fired up. When it started to rev, I turned off the choke and it idled right back down and I could feed in throttle a lot better without the bike wanting to die out.

Thinking deeper into this, and rambling right along with this post, the bike might be jetted to the moon, and/or jetted by a previous owner in another state that is not the 7000 feet of elevation I live at, and removing the airbox leaned it out so it was happier. In that case, I will mess up the new oil in short order if I put the airbox back on regardless. BUT, do you guys think that is what is going on, or do you feel the gas in the oil could be from the choke situation I described?

Thanks in advance for reading this, and for any input.

[DGXSER]

In short, my answer is your thinking very wishfully.

I do not belive for a minute that running rich, or jetting caused gasoline to show up in your oil. That one is simply a matter of leaking float valves. So yes, until you find out why the float valves were leaking, you are at high risk of ruining your new oil.

Now, what you can do, is to put the bike on the centerstand on a fairly level spot, then lift the front end and place a jack stand under the frame bar in front, or wood blocks under the front wheel, something to force the bike to lean toward the rear more. This will force the fuel to run out the back of the carbs instead of into the engine. Of course you could also be on a slope with the bike facing uphill.

Then turn the fuel on and see if fuel comes out the airbox.

[CaptonZap]

Thinking deeper into this, and rambling right along with this post, the bike might be jetted to the moon, and/or jetted by a previous owner in another state that is not the 7000 feet of elevation I live at, and removing the airbox leaned it out so it was happier. In that case, I will mess up the new oil in short order if I put the airbox back on regardless. BUT, do you guys think that is what is going on, or do you feel the gas in the oil could be from the choke situation I described?

Thanks in advance for reading this, and for any input.

Howdy Howard,
I don't know if it is apropos, but I read this someplace, and thought it might give you some solace, in this, your hour of consternation.

CZ

With apologies to The Old Philosopher, (http://www.madmusic.com/song_details.aspx?SongID=270),

You say you parked your XS11 for a few years, and when you took it out of the collapsed shed and the cobwebs, and you cleaned it up, and changed the oil, and used the $8 a quart oil from the motorcycle dealer, because you wanted to make it up to your bike, and you put some premium gas in the tank, and found out the battery was dead, and when you came back and got the new battery in, you noticed a puddle of gas under the air box, and the oil level window was full of fluid, and pounding on the carbs with a screwdriver handle didn't stop the steady drip out of the air box, and now you don't have any money to get more oil, 'cause you had to buy a battery,
Is that what's trouble'n you Bucko?
Well hold your head up high, take walk in the sun, show the world where to get off, and never give up, never give up, never give up that ship p p.

Let me remind you, do not try this at home. We are what you call professionals.

Take a metal pan big enough to hold the diluted oil, or portions thereof, in case you cant find a big enough container to hold it all. A clean 5 gal metal can works great.
Get an electric hot plate, an extension cord that will handle the watt draw of the hot plate, and that will reach a spot that is out in the open, with no over hanging combustibles or ground cover, a router speed control, (on sale at Habba Fleight , Item #43060, for only $19.99, hurry, sale ends soon), a measuring stick that is oil and heat proof, and a kitchen thermometer that reads to 350f or so. If you meet resistance from your kitchen help about the thermometer, explain that you will return it in better condition, or at least in as good of condition, as when you took it.
Besides, if you have to ask permission to use it, you aren't man enough to be doing this , so you better go back to watching Sponge Bob or That Girl reruns.
Place the can on the ELECTRIC, (and I can't stress that electric part strongly enough, DO NOT use the propane BBQ), hot plate and plug it into the speed controller, and that into the extension cord. ( The cord into an outlet, for our slow readers)
Suspend the thermometer so that the sensing tip is about an inch deep in the oil, and positioned so that you can read it. The ruler also.
Turn on the hot plate full blast, and monitor the temperature. As soon as small bubbles start rising, and you can see convection currents in the oil, turn the control down a skoesh, (sp?) and watch the temperature. You are trying to get to 250 deg F, and to set the controller so that it will hold that temperature.
Once that is achieved, you can find a cover that will not impede the fumes from escaping over the lip of the can, but will stop the malevolent magpies from any success in their bombing mission. Some professionals use three beer cans, crushed in the middle, placed evenly spaced on the edge of the can, and a metal garbage can lid placed on them.
I realize that you, being strapped for cash after buying a battery, won't be able to afford the beer, so you might invite Greg over, and maybe he will share, but if not, you can use his empties. JAT
Remember, gasoline fumes are heavier than air, so they will over flow the can, and run down to the ground and spread out, mixing with air, forming a combustible mixture until they are diluted enough to reach the lower limit of flammability. ( Look it up ) Now you understand the open flame prohibition during this exercise.
For those of you who, if you will pardon the expression, like to kill two birds with one stone, the operation might be located so that the fumes ran down a prairie dog hole, and thus you might get double usage from the vaporized gasoline.
Once the temperature reaches 250 and stabilizes, make a note of the fluid level, and go clean up the mess that happened as you were getting the oil drained. Don't try and kid us! Everybody makes a mess draining oil on an XS.
Check back every hour or so, and make a note of how much the fluid level drops. As the day wears on, the level will drop, and finally you will see it stop dropping. Give it another hour, and turn off the heat. Let it cool, and if the wind was blowing, strain it through an old tee shirt to get the big chunks out.
There you have it, for a few cents worth of electricity, and a days worth of fun on a par with watching paint dry, you have your oil back, almost as good as new.

The Frugal Mech



The forgoing is intended as education material only, and the authors cannot be held responsible for any mishaps, should any readers try the process/s described. Your state may prohibit such disclaimers, so you may or may not have certain legal rights, consult an attorney.

[fredintoon]

- - - Question: Do you guys think I'll just be contaminating new oil by doing this? - - -

>
Hi Howard,
if the old oil stank of gas it had to go.
Now, oil ain't cheap but compared to buying another bottom end because you can't find XS11 bearing shells any more, oil is a total bargain.
What I'd do is replace the oil you put in as soon as the bike is running right.

[fredintoon]

A quick aside

Capton Zap quoted this:-

- - - go clean up the mess that happened as you were getting the oil drained. Don't try and kid us! Everybody makes a mess draining oil on an XS. - - -

And it just ain't true.
Before he got his own place my boy Eric used to borrow my garage to do his oil changes.
He'd slide my oil drain bowl out from under the work bench and change his oil & filter without spilling a drop.
Then he'd slide the drain bowl back under the bench with the oil still in it.
The fool pulling the drain bowl out the next time without first checking it for content got to make the mess and do the cleanup.

[Rasputin]

It is fairly simple. Change the oil and fix the float needle seats, or change the o-ring. Thing is these bikes will leak fuel if they are not happy. If you think it is the petcock valves then you just have not looked far enough as they do not stop it at the carbs.
If the bike is level and on the side stand it will leak from the air box, if it is on the center stand it will go into the motor and down into the oil.
If you do not believe that, then do nothing but check your oil after it has been sitting on the side stand and again after it sits on the double stand. I will guarantee there is a difference.

[Bonz]

I can say with certainty when I had needle seat o-ring issues on my 80SG, it mattered not whether it was on the sidestand or centerstand, I got gas out the airbox, and to some extent the oil, but the majority came out the airbox.

Where did the petcocks come into the conversation?

Pulled the carbs today, man, why in the heck are the carbs always so jacked up??? Seems like all previous owners are idiots, as every bike I've bought used has not just wear and tear, but also comes with the stupidity of some previous owner running out the airbox and into the engine along with the gasoline.

Anyhow, got a list of bits and pieces I'm gonna need for the carbs, so pulled the front brakes and rebuilt the calipers for a nightcap to the day's festivities of rehabbing the bike.

For jetting, the bike has 115-120-120-115, and has a K&N with the airbox correctly drilled with (4) 1/2" holes.

My 80SG was 110 across the board along with a K&N (airbox not drilled), and at the elevation here in Palmer Lake (7000 feet) I've gone down to 107.5 across the board for the past 3 years. Goes without saying the bike runs very well.

For the 80G, based on my 80SG having the same engine and set up, other than the drilled airbox, experience would say make them 115's across the board.

It's coming along that's fo' sho'.

[DGXSER]

I feel you Howard. It does surprise me the jetting that seems to sense to some folks.

[motoman]

I can say with certainty when I had needle seat o-ring issues on my 80SG, it mattered not whether it was on the sidestand or centerstand, I got gas out the airbox, and to some extent the oil, but the majority came out the airbox.

Where did the petcocks come into the conversation?

Pulled the carbs today, man, why in the heck are the carbs always so jacked up??? Seems like all previous owners are idiots, as every bike I've bought used has not just wear and tear, but also comes with the stupidity of some previous owner running out the airbox and into the engine along with the gasoline.

Anyhow, got a list of bits and pieces I'm gonna need for the carbs, so pulled the front brakes and rebuilt the calipers for a nightcap to the day's festivities of rehabbing the bike.

For jetting, the bike has 115-120-120-115, and has a K&N with the airbox correctly drilled with (4) 1/2" holes.

My 80SG was 110 across the board along with a K&N (airbox not drilled), and at the elevation here in Palmer Lake (7000 feet) I've gone down to 107.5 across the board for the past 3 years. Goes without saying the bike runs very well.

For the 80G, based on my 80SG having the same engine and set up, other than the drilled airbox, experience would say make them 115's across the board.

It's coming along that's fo' sho'.

Would leave that main jetting alone Howard! The 80-81Standard had longer fatter taper needles as opposed to the shorter, quicker taper needles of the 80-81Special. If you chose to lean it out a bit, 115's across is all the drop I'd make, even at your altitude. My Venturer ran fine stock off the showroom floor at 6500ft.elev.(Durango) and higher for many a year with no issues. Also, remember these vacuum slide carbs compensate fairly well with altitude changes. Altitude=less vacuum= less slide rise=less needle rise out of main jets. Better a tad rich than a tad lean.........helps keep from ventilating a piston and reduces heat transfered to valves and seats.

[Rasputin]

I can say with certainty when I had needle seat o-ring issues on my 80SG, it mattered not whether it was on the sidestand or centerstand, I got gas out the airbox, and to some extent the oil, but the majority came out the airbox.
Where did the petcocks come into the conversation?

I guess if you are so cock sure of yourself that you do not need any input. "To some extent the Oil" sounds to me like what I said. I will now simply say have fun and do not worry as I will not bother you with my replies!

[Bonz]

Rasputin,

Thanks for the replies.

To clarify, you were saying it was all or none, by the tone of your posts, as to whether gas went out the airbox or into the engine, based on sidestand or centerstand.

So, I am saying that it is NOT all or none in my experience, and when I get a beaucoup load of gas out the butt-end of the airbox, I have had some gas get in the oil as well, but not as much (i.e. "to some extent") as would come out the airbox.

I guess if that is cock sure of myself, then that is what I am saying.

[Bonz]

Well, the bike is still coming along...

Not to go into everything, other than to say more things have been serviced/fixed/rebuilt at this point than there are things left to do on the bike.

Main items left are rebuild the petcocks, front master cylinder and fix the rusted mufflers with some Harley grafts on the outlet ends, behind the crossover.

Both petcocks were of flow through design (i.e. totally shot in all positions, fully flowing) with plastic manual taps spliced in as a stop gap, but they didn't stop much fuel either...

Master cylinder was a mess inside, cleaned up well, waiting on the rebuild kit to come with the petcock kits.

Carbs were a doofus of a mess inside. Overall, they needed a good cleaning from the film on most surfaces, and due to substances (JB weld) in the carbs by a p.o. in attempting to fix broken parts. One float needle didn't have the hanger on it, so wasn't even attached to the float tang, float bowl drain screw tower was broken off/stripped threads and the #1 pilot jet head was broken off. CaptonZap was a great help with the latter two issues, so thanks CZ.

When putting the carbs back together this weekend, the floats settled in at the right height on all but one carb, and that only took a minor tweak. Once I filled the bowls and got some fuel flowing, the bike fired up very nicely, and told me I have the carbs in pretty good shape to dial them in once the remaining things are done.

Thanks for all the advice and help, the bike will be a great runner when it's all said and done.

[Rasputin]

Where did the petcocks come into the conversation?

Somewhere a while back somone mentioned petcocks.

[Bonz]

Looking forward to getting the rebuild DONE, then I can help some poor sap along like you guys helped me!

[Bonz]

80G update!

The 79F that is really an 80G with a 160 mph speedo is on the road!

Doesn't look like much rumbling down the road, but it's a good running machine! I'll post up some pics in the next day or two. Really like the highway pegs, never had them on a bike before.

The bike has been put back to "stock" with a square headlight and turn signals. I nixed the Pacifico fairing as I really like the stock Standard look. So, I have a Pacifico fairing and mount bracket/hardware if anyone is looking...

Gas mileage is at 39 mpg for the first 200+ miles, which is a couple mpg better than my 80SG with the FD swap. I was hammering the old girl pretty hard with a couple runs to higher speed... a-hem... , roll-ons, steady cruising, interstate running 75-80 mph. Pretty much every type of riding you might do.

Plugs are a 'purty tan color, which is a far cry from the soot black when I got the bike, before carb rehab, exhaust rehab, whole bike rehab. Speedo is pretty accurate, reads 40 mph at GPS 38 mph, 50 mph at a GPS 48 mph, albeit takes a long time to catch up with road speed when accelerating and slowing down.

BTW, anyone have a source or solution for the rubber grommet that holds the side cover in place? Need one...

Cheers!