It was all good until....

[crazy steve]

Ok, so the motor looks to be in time. Brad and I took a moment to put the tensioner back in and check the timing. When we line everything up to the "T" both of the cam's line up. One thing that I did notice was that there is some play in the crank timing cover plate. If you grab the timing plate and pull on it, it will move in and out close to a 1/4". It has enough play that you can see where it has been rubbing on the cover.

Trying to post pics

Ah HA! Bet your mechanical advance unit has disintegrated... Pull the timing gear off, that will tell the story....

[Brad]

Some clarification

After going against everyone's advice, we turned it over by hand to see if it was out of time. We don't know another way to line up the marks to check the time. The older post only shows on what we have found when we took the covers off, and yes, we know that we are not supposed to turn anything when the cam tensioner is out. We also know the basics of timing and we were not trying to set to any mark, it was just what we found when we took the covers off. No x-ray vision to look through the covers. , and no 6th sense to tell if it was out of time without turning by hand to the correct timing position to see where the cam marks lined up. Again, thanks all for the help so far, we are still trouble shooting and looking for the problem. All suggestions are welcome, even if you don't read the headers or previous posts.

[Brad]

Some pics of the findings.

Ok, i'm gonna venture a wild guess here and say that you don't have a service manual, right? "cause if you did, you'd know that to check the cam timing, you should line up the 'T' mark, NOT the 'C'

Thanks there TIPS, we didnt know that. LOL Were still thinking its a bad battery. Anyway, heres some pics of what the cams look like when we lined up the timing marks to the "T".




Another finding, here's what the inside of the timing cover looks like. It apperas that the timing plate has been rubbing on the cover...Could that be the noise we herd? What would cause this issue?



As Mike has stated in a previous post,

Ok, so the motor looks to be in time. Brad and I took a moment to put the tensioner back in and check the timing. When we line everything up to the "T" both of the cam's line up. One thing that I did notice was that there is some play in the crank timing cover plate. If you grab the timing plate and pull on it, it will move in and out close to a 1/4". It has enough play that you can see where it has been rubbing on the cover.


p.s.
no riding today, only on weekends does the weather turn 180 degrees....

[natemoen]

Actually that is not in time. It looks like you are 1 tooth off on both the intake and exhaust side. That dot should be straight. In line, not off to the side at all.

Also post a picture of the back side of the cam gears when you have the dots in line.

[James England]

Actually that is not in time. It looks like you are 1 tooth off on both the intake and exhaust side. That dot should be straight. In line, not off to the side at all.

Also post a picture of the back side of the cam gears when you have the dots in line.

+1 on that. If lined up on the T mark, the cam dot should be directly opposite. Yes, I would agree... one tooth out

[crazy steve]

...Another finding, here's what the inside of the timing cover looks like. It apperas that the timing plate has been rubbing on the cover...Could that be the noise we herd? What would cause this issue?

You need to find out what's happening here first. If your timing plate/mechanical advance unit is loose or broken, that would cause this. And this would also give false info when you line up the timing marks at the crank/timing plate. This might be your whole problem....

[Rasputin]

You need to find out what's happening here first. If your timing plate/mechanical advance unit is loose or broken, that would cause this. And this would also give false info when you line up the timing marks at the crank/timing plate. This might be your whole problem....

There is very little clearance between the timing plate #2 and the timing cover. If the timing cover was installed with no gasket and the square nut part of the timing plate was rounded off a bit, it can actually touch.
I have run two of them with no gasket installed while I waited to get one earlier in life and they did make a light mark exactly as shown.
This is one of mine and all the timing parts etc are tight and have no play at all.

[bikerphil]

The pointer might have got bent somehow, might want to verify TDC thru the #1 spark plug hole. Make sure the pointer is correct before moving the cams over a tooth.

[DGXSER]

If the timing assembly is moving 1/4" then possibly the bolt came loose, it could have let the plate rotate. From what we read in your post, it makes the entire timing set up suspect.

I would agree to verify the TDC with No. 1 piston. You can easily make a degree wheel, I believe instructions are in the tech tips now. Simple way is to turn the crank with that bolt while you have a rod of osme type down the no 1 spark plug hole. When it stops rising, see where the timing mark is. continue turning till it just starts to drop, see where the timing mark is. Half way between those two is TDC.

If the T mark is correct for TDC, then yes, your chain has slipped a tooth somewhere. But this is the time to slow down, and back check what you think is true before you jump into anything.

[natemoen]

this is the time to slow down, and back check what you think is true before you jump into anything.

Absolutely! +1

[MRevet80]

Well I figufered I would take everyones advice and think about what is going on. So I went with my gut feeling and tore the motor out of the bike. Once I cut a hole cut in the cieling of my garage to mount an ofverhead hoist it took about an hour to get the motor out. Once I had the motor out and on the floor I took the head off. There I found lots of carbon build up in cyl 2+3 (not the problem). I didn't notice any marks on the pistons or valves to indicate a piston hitting a valve. But I did notice that when I rotated the crank that #1+2 moved in sequence but #3+4 were slow to follow. At TDC if you nudge the crank back and forth 1+2 pistons move but no movement on 3+4. I'm no expert but some might agree with me that this is not good. I have pics and video that I will post soon. I would still like any opinions you may have it has all helped so far. Did I jump the gun or made a good gut choice.

[DGXSER]

As to the movment of the pistons, I am not 100% certain myself. I do not recall the timing order and how the pistons are syncrhonized. Some lag is normal when they are at or near TDC or BDC.

If the problem was in the timing or not will never be known for sure now though. I would still review the timing assembly on the left side, make sure it is properly assembled and tight.

[crazy steve]

Almost sounds like a broken crankshaft....

[DGXSER]

Steve, I thought that too, but it is so uncommon on these bikes.

The way the coils are paired, it would seem 3 and 4 might be only 90 deg off. With 1 and 4 on the same coil they should be 180 deg off so ones valves are open when the plug gets juice while the other is just past TDC for combustion.

[crazy steve]

The way these work, one and four go up and down together, two and three are 180 degrees away and move together. So when one and four are at TDC, two and three will be at BDC. These have a 'flat' crank, not one where the rod throws are rotated 90 degrees to each other. Really sounds like a busted crank. He might have an irregular break, and the 'fracture' is enough to turn the other 'half'. The crankshaft thrust bearing is located between three and four, so if the crank is broken between two and three, this would allow the 1/2 'half' to wander a bit back and forth in the main bearings and could account for the marking inside the timing cover...