bad flasher unit??

[jetmechmarty]

Take all four of the signal lights apart. Clean all of the connections, power and ground. No doubt, there is corrosion in there. Take the switch gear off and clean the switch connections. That should put you back in business.

[GLoweVA]

Old_skool, +1 on what Marty said about cleaning all the corrosion and bad connections.
I had a bad power lead to my front light and it prevented the stock flasher from flashing. The stock unit requires a certain amount of load to be able to work right and that's why different bulbs mess the circuit up. (like LEDs or bulbs with the wrong wattage)
So, to answer the question on how it works, I'll try to give you the condensed version:
The Self Cancel Unit (SCU) counts a signal from a reed switch in the speedo that is the equivalent of about 1/4 mile. When that is reached the SCU then sends a voltage signal to the stock flasher to turn it off. (that's why there's three prongs on the stock flasher. An automobile flasher only has 2)
So, even if the SCU doesn't work, or the reed switch in the speedo is broke, the stock flasher should still make the lights flash when the handlebar switch is activated and stay on until you recenter(cancel) the handlebar switch.
A replacement stock flasher isn't easy to find but they are out there.
Some have forgone the Self Cancel feature and replaced the stock flasher with and automotive 2 prong type and the system works great. (That flasher doesn't care what kind of bulbs you got and will flash regardless, but you do lose the self cancelling feature)
If you're not sure if you've got a stock flasher, It'll be 3 pronged and be kinda big (like twice the size of a normal automotive type)(about 2 1/2" - 3" long)

Hope this clears things up a bit.

[natemoen]

Old_skool, +1 on what Marty said about cleaning all the corrosion and bad connections.
I had a bad power lead to my front light and it prevented the stock flasher from flashing. The stock unit requires a certain amount of load to be able to work right and that's why different bulbs mess the circuit up. (like LEDs or bulbs with the wrong wattage)
So, to answer the question on how it works, I'll try to give you the condensed version:
The Self Cancel Unit (SCU) counts a signal from a reed switch in the speedo that is the equivalent of about 1/4 mile. When that is reached the SCU then sends a voltage signal to the stock flasher to turn it off. (that's why there's three prongs on the stock flasher. An automobile flasher only has 2)
So, even if the SCU doesn't work, or the reed switch in the speedo is broke, the stock flasher should still make the lights flash when the handlebar switch is activated and stay on until you recenter(cancel) the handlebar switch.
A replacement stock flasher isn't easy to find but they are out there.
Some have forgone the Self Cancel feature and replaced the stock flasher with and automotive 2 prong type and the system works great. (That flasher doesn't care what kind of bulbs you got and will flash regardless, but you do lose the self cancelling feature)
If you're not sure if you've got a stock flasher, It'll be 3 pronged and be kinda big (like twice the size of a normal automotive type)(about 2 1/2" - 3" long)

Hope this clears things up a bit.

The self canceler also has a timer in it, I do not know the time that it counts though, and the canceler needs both the time limit and the distance limit to cancel the signals, it uses whichever signal is greatest to be the deciding factor as to when the signals cancel.

[crazy steve]

I haven't read much on the electronics of these bikes yet, how does the self canceling work and how did you integrate it with an auto flasher?

Like a lot of the electrics on these bikes, Yamaha used a 'novel' approach to get a solution....

The OEM flasher isn't really a flasher, at least in the sense that it doesn't use the typical bi-metal strip that heats and bends to break the contact. Instead, they used a solenoid with a capacitor built-in; the capacitor draws off power preventing the solenoid from closing until it charges, once it becomes 'full' the solenoid closes, the additional power usage of the lights quickly drains the capacitor opening the solenoid, then the cycle repeats.

The self-canceller operates by energizing (after it's gotten the 'right' number of pulses from the speedometer reed switch) a second coil in the flasher which has reverse polarity to the 'main' coil. This prevents the 'main' coil from pulling in, the lights go off. It should be noted that the turn signal circuit continuously draws power after self-cancelling (although not very much) until the bike is shut off or you manually cancel the turns.

If you used a standard auto-style flasher, it lacked the two coils inside the OEM unit and the canceller signal had no place to connect. Cy Welch figured out that you could use that signal to drive a separate relay and use that to disconnect power to the flasher. Works, too. The only caveat is you have to use a relay with a small coil current and a low 'hold-in' voltage; most relays are 'too large' for this. The how-to is here: http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34406

If your original flasher is working right, there's nothing to be gained by doing this conversion. But if it's bad, these are horribly expensive to replace with new (current list price is $145.00!!!), so using a $3-4 auto flasher looks pretty good.... Add in a few more bucks for the relay and you're back in business.

I'll note that if the self-cancel is the only part that doesn't work with the OEM flasher, that's not the flasher's fault; you have a problem with a bad canceller, a failed reed switch, or poor connections. The signals will work with the canceller module disconnected (assuming everything is good), they just won't self-cancel...

[GLoweVA]

I just learned something

Thanks Steve,

....once it becomes 'full' the solenoid closes, the additional power usage of the lights quickly drains the capacitor opening the solenoid, then the cycle repeats.

So that's why with the LEDs and the lower wattage automobile bulbs, the circuit doesn't 'drain off' enough power for the capacitor to discharge and restart the cycle all over again.
Thus, the lights just stay on all the time and don't flash.
(I now see the light !! )(pun intended)

[old_skool]

Thus, the lights just stay on all the time and don't flash.
(I now see the light !! )(pun intended)

No....now you see it, now you don't...now you see it, now you d............lol

Yeah I was pricing those flashers and figured I'd go the auto route if mine goes bad, but I'll be going over all the connections and bulbs before I condemn anything. Most bikes I rode never had a self cancel, maybe I'll sell it for $$ and just replace it with a cheapo so I can intensify the lighting a little. Brighter lights and louder horns...gotta make the knuckleheads out there see you.

[crazy steve]

One thing I learned from troubleshooting the turns on the SG I rebuilt is just how sensitive the OEM system is to poor connections. The factory manual has a troubleshooting procedure in it, and it pays to follow it. Poor connections to the canceller can prevent the OEM flasher from working, so if your turns aren't working, unplug the canceller before troubleshooting. The turns will work without it in the circuit, they just won't cancel. So if plugging it in makes the turns stop working, don't assume the canceller is bad. Another thing to check is continuity between the flasher shell and the 'C' contact on the flasher; if this internal connection gets dirty, the flasher won't work right. You can carefully open the flasher and clean this, then reassemble; you can also clean the relay contacts while you're in there. The OEM flasher is a pretty heavy-duty piece and should outlast the bike; I suspect that many are discarded by owners failing to follow the FSM guide....

The OEM flasher is picky about connected load too, although I've found that if all the connections are tip-top, that's quite a bit less critical. Yes, if you're looking to convert to LED lamps to save power, you'll have to change it out, but if keeping 'conventional' lamps I'd personally try to fix what's there before making any mods....

[cywelchjr]

One of the reasons I had for doing the auto cancel mod was because of how picky the oem system is. Even when right, they will often not flash at the same speed. So I replaced the flasher unit with a two prong automotive unit, and when time permitted and with some circuit figuring that ELDR did I figured out how to make auto cancel work with the two prong flasher.

What made this hard (it would have been easy with LED turn signals, cause the relay needed for them would have a sensitive enough coil) is that any relay that can handle the current needed by the turn signals, needs more current for pull in than the auto cancel unit is designed to source. So it took TWO relays, one to sense the signal from the auto cancel unit, and basically amplify auto cancel unit signal for the larger relay.

BTW, I could have done the amplify step with transistors and such, but I was trying to create something that the average rider could duplicate with nothing more than average soldering skills. I'm thinking about building a "wire in" unit this winter that I might be willing to sell at around cost if there is interest in it.

[crazy steve]

...was because of how picky the oem system is. Even when right, they will often not flash at the same speed...

Yeah, there seems to be enough variation in how the flashers are built that some will work 'regular' lamps and some won't, or it's in the connections. It seems like that if any of the connections get degraded (even a little), you'll have issues...

I used Harley turn signals on the SG, and I got them (used) with 1157/1156 lamps installed. I figured I would have trouble with that (because I had before when trying those lamps in my '78), but they worked fine, even with the motor stopped. One big difference is the Harley signals I used have a separate ground in them directly to the socket shell, so making sure the Yamaha sockets and ground points are spotlessly clean is a big part of making these work right.

[jetmechmarty]

My SG had those troubles with intermittent signals. They would stop flashing at idle. I took everything apart and cleaned the connections, in both the light assemblies and switches. I also made sure all of the lamps were the same part number, 1156 in my case. They now work like new.