Two Prong Flasher Auto Cancel Mod

[cywelchjr]

Cy, Randy, Steve, PMFJI but I just got back online after yet another pending hard drive failure and had to test the new drive offline before transferring any data to it.

A Darlington pair, prepackaged or discrete, should be able to use the low current to drive the flasher directly and get rid of the extra relay or am I totally misreading what's wanted here?

The idea is to kill the power to the flasher when the auto cancel unit line goes high. Further study shows that it should be working as is, but I appear to have something wrong. And the reason it wasn't working when you were here was I didn't have a proper ground for the relay.

[3Phase]

Well, I was thinking of an inverted/not Darlington but as long as the relay's clicking for you with low amps: drive on!

I will say that I have developed a... distrust of cheap relays ever since the Bosch I used for a horn relay on Columbo failed, setting off the horn at 4 AM in the garage until it was turned off permanently with a BFH and replaced with a proper AC-Delco horn relay.

So with that I'm off for another ride to Arizona! I have to test the new final drive and battery you know, just to make sure they're working.

[DGXSER]

You know Scott, with all this testing you have to do your break soemthing for sure......your smiling muscles!!

[crazy steve]

The most interesting part of this mod (to me) is it opens up possibilities for 'lighting magic' on other bikes as well. Many later-model bikes use integrated flasher/canceller modules, so you're even more severely limited in what sort of mods you can do. With a separate XS cancelling module and some creative circuits with relays, you could do some interesting things. How about converting your rear turns to brake/tail/turn lights, and eliminating the 'standard' rear tail/brake light altogether?....

Or being able to change out the handlebars/controls? The oddball turn signal switch in these make control/bar swaps tough, you could get around that.

[cywelchjr]

Well, I was thinking of an inverted/not Darlington but as long as the relay's clicking for you with low amps: drive on!

I will say that I have developed a... distrust of cheap relays ever since the Bosch I used for a horn relay on Columbo failed, setting off the horn at 4 AM in the garage until it was turned off permanently with a BFH and replaced with a proper AC-Delco horn relay.

So with that I'm off for another ride to Arizona! I have to test the new final drive and battery you know, just to make sure they're working.

I do understand. This setup is designed as a failsafe setup. If the relay fails, it just stops auto canceling. However, while I tell what part number *I* used, I do so to allow others to choose a part that meets the same spec. The thing is, these low coil current coils don't cost very much, I've shopped all over for them, and they all run about the same price at about the same spec. But I gotta open up my auto cancel unit today most likely and check the points in it, as I suspect when I do my voltage checks I'm going to find a significant voltage drop is happening through it, which should NOT be happening.

[crazy steve]

....But I gotta open up my auto cancel unit today most likely and check the points in it, as I suspect when I do my voltage checks I'm going to find a significant voltage drop is happening through it, which should NOT be happening.

I don't know that you can open the canceller up; all mine appear to be sealed potted units. I suspect that the problem may be the power going/getting to it; I know that when I was troubleshooting the wiring on my SG, the plug for the canceller was one of the problems until I thoroughly cleaned it. According to the diagrams, the brown power input comes directly from the fuse, so I would suspect that the problem is in either that connection at the canceller plug, or the green/yellow output in the plug. Unless of course, the unit itself is bad....

The canceller also has a ground connection, that may be the problem too. If you're having ground issues, that may be worth looking at.

[cywelchjr]

I don't know that you can open the canceller up; all mine appear to be sealed potted units. I suspect that the problem may be the power going/getting to it; I know that when I was troubleshooting the wiring on my SG, the plug for the canceller was one of the problems until I thoroughly cleaned it. According to the diagrams, the brown power input comes directly from the fuse, so I would suspect that the problem is in either that connection at the canceller plug, or the green/yellow output in the plug. Unless of course, the unit itself is bad....

The canceller also has a ground connection, that may be the problem too. If you're having ground issues, that may be worth looking at.

Well, I just tested it, and checked the connectors as well. When the unit it nice and cool, early in the morning or late at night, I get 11.97 volts in, and 11.68 out of the cancel unit. But when the cancel unit gets warm, I'm getting the same voltage in, but I'm only getting 7.8 to 6.5 out of it. As best I can tell the connections are clean, and cleaning them didn't make any difference, so I'm guessing this says that my auto cancel unit is bad. This would explain why it works sometimes and not others, and not all the time, especially when by the book, there is MORE than enough capacity to work all the time. And now that I think about it, my auto cancel didn't always work with the OEM flasher either, and it was after I rode a while OR if the bike sat in the sun (and the cancel unit sits under the seat where it gets really hot in the sun. So I guess I'm going to be looking for an auto cancel unit, since this one is so clearly bad.

[crazy steve]

When the unit it nice and cool, early in the morning or late at night, I get 11.97 volts in, and 11.68 out of the cancel unit. But when the cancel unit gets warm, I'm getting the same voltage in, but I'm only getting 7.8 to 6.5 out of it...

Cy, I don't know if I'd give up on it just yet. You should be getting battery voltage to the canceller (and I have to assume you have more than 11.97 if your battery is charged), so you still may have a bad connection. If you get full voltage to it and it still won't work, then I'd start looking for another one...

I know on the SG, it seemed like every connection would eat a tenth or two of a volt, and it adds up quickly....

[cywelchjr]

Cy, I don't know if I'd give up on it just yet. You should be getting battery voltage to the canceller (and I have to assume you have more than 11.97 if your battery is charged), so you still may have a bad connection. If you get full voltage to it and it still won't work, then I'd start looking for another one...

I know on the SG, it seemed like every connection would eat a tenth or two of a volt, and it adds up quickly....

But there is no way that those connections are making it drop that much through the canceler. Remember, this is with the ignition on AND the flashers going, which drops battery voltage slightly. If I remove the load of the relay (which is 30ma and I've measured it, that's all it's drawing), it's giving almost exactly the same out as in, so something is certainly not right in there. It's supposed to source like almost 200ma, and it's not handling even 30, it's not even even in the same country, let alone the ballpark. There is no way this thing is good, not the way it's acting. The question is if I replace it with another used one that might be just a bad, or add the external circuitry to let it do it's job with the horrible low ability to handle any load on there that it has. The input voltage is dropping virtually none at all under the varying load of the signals (as slight amount, but it's about .1v between on and off which seems reasonable to me considering the amount and size of wire involved pluse the connectors since the is no such thing as a 100% efficient connector, so your going to lose something in each connector even if their in perfect condition anyways.

[crazy steve]

...this is with the ignition on AND the flashers going, which drops battery voltage slightly...
...The question is if I replace it with another used one that might be just a bad, or add the external circuitry to let it do it's job with the horrible low ability to handle any load on there that it has...

Ah, if that's what it's doing under load, then it's on its way out...

I'd go for another one; you know this one has problems, and it would suck to go through a bunch of monkey motion to 'fix' around it, then have it fail anyway. At least that would be my luck....

I wonder if it would be worth it to try to dissect the old one to see how it works?

[cywelchjr]

Ah, if that's what it's doing under load, then it's on its way out...

I'd go for another one; you know this one has problems, and it would suck to go through a bunch of monkey motion to 'fix' around it, then have it fail anyway. At least that would be my luck....

I wonder if it would be worth it to try to dissect the old one to see how it works?

Yep, gotta do some research on how to de-pot one. I want to do it without damaging anything, so research is in order, I understand there are ways to do it where you can dissolve the stuff. AAMOF I remember doing that in the Army, but I don't remember what we used, but we did that and then re-sealed them up (not these devices but mil-spec stuff, but I think it was done the same way).

I found then on ebay ranging from 9-69 bucks, so I may try one of the 9 dollar ones .

[jwhughes3]

Dimethelyne chloride

In paint stripper is listed as an epoxy solvent....

Sounds nasty - be careful.

John

[BA80]

In paint stripper is listed as an epoxy solvent....

Sounds nasty - be careful.

John

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[TopCatGr58]

Hey Greg,

Drink that 2nd cup of coffee next time. He's suggesting using Paint thinner to help Dissolve the Epoxy that the canceller unit is "potted" in, so that he can get access to the components inside!

T.C.

[cywelchjr]

Hey Greg,

Drink that 2nd cup of coffee next time. He's suggesting using Paint thinner to help Dissolve the Epoxy that the canceller unit is "potted" in, so that he can get access to the components inside!

T.C.

Most stuff I found on "depotting" I found recommends heat and a sharp blade . I'm going to open up my extra unit and see what's in there. In the mean time, can someone with a known good OEM flasher and canceller check what the voltage is on the yellow/green wire at the plug from the cancel unit when you turn on the ignition with the turn signal switch already in the right or left position (signals on when you turned off the bike, signals should either not come on or flash just once (shouldn't come on at all with the OEM flasher)) and let me know what you get? I'm wondering if the OEM flasher actually needs to get FED the 160ma to actually cancel, and maybe I DO need to add a transistor to the circuit to make this thing work. I have two auto cancel units that behave almost the same as each other. It would seem strange if two failed the same way, which leads me to believe they might be behaving normally.

If I'm right, once this is worked out, the mod will work on ANY XS with auto cancel turn signals, as they all use the same auto cancel system, and at worst the only difference might be the wire colors at the flasher, but at least on my XS400 the colors are the same. Same cancel unit, same flasher etc. Looking, it looks like it might even be the same rear brake light switch .