Two Prong Flasher Auto Cancel Mod

[crazy steve]

Who woulda thunk it's be so simple... of course it usually looks simple once it's done... Slick!

Cy, the problem of the relay and it's supplying voltage. Would a lower-coil-voltage relay work if you used a resistor inline from the canceller to drop the less-than-12v down to the 'new' coil voltage? While 12v relays are more common, you can get 6v units that will usually operate at anywhere from 5-8 volts. Put a 1 or 2 watt resistor of the right value before the relay and you could 'tune' the voltage to fit the relay coil. The only problem I can see would be if the current coming out of the canceller is limited and too low.

I'll pick one nit; your pic showing the completed mod has the ground labeled as one of the brown wires, which would be a short circuit. Your explanation has it right, but this might confuse somebody...

[cywelchjr]

Who woulda thunk it's be so simple... of course it usually looks simple once it's done... Slick!

Cy, the problem of the relay and it's supplying voltage. Would a lower-coil-voltage relay work if you used a resistor inline from the canceller to drop the less-than-12v down to the 'new' coil voltage? While 12v relays are more common, you can get 6v units that will usually operate at anywhere from 5-8 volts. Put a 1 or 2 watt resistor of the right value before the relay and you could 'tune' the voltage to fit the relay coil. The only problem I can see would be if the current coming out of the canceller is limited and too low.

I'll pick one nit; your pic showing the completed mod has the ground labeled as one of the brown wires, which would be a short circuit. Your explanation has it right, but this might confuse somebody...

Really? Hmm, I don't see that.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Cy,

I have to admit that I had/have a hard time following/figuring out which wires to work on, etc.! You mention about using a DVOM to figure it out, but the description is a bit vague...for US non-Electronics trained folks! I can follow a simple wiring diagram...+ and - and such, but I think a bit more "simplistic" description may be in order for folks in general?

I'll have to review the wiring diagrams of the different years to see if they used different colored wires for the turn signal flasher connector....but I think folks would appreciate an "install for dummies" approach to this thing...ie. this colored Harness Wire goes to this part of the relay, etc.!

I know you're not quite done with this mod yet. I thought you had seen where I had talked about ELDR having made a flasher for the LED conversion that retains the self cancelling feature. So...apparently he may have figured out the circuit and what was needed to preserve the cancel feature, perhaps a PM to him might get him to SHARE his info with you, maybe even a schematic or such?? We don't want to step on his toes with regards to his Product...which replaces the OEM flasher and retains the self cancel feature for folks running LED Turn signals....his unit has a 2 amp load limit so it can't be used for OEM/incandescent lights. But folks wanting to KEEP their regular bulbs but need to replace their broken OEM flasher would be the ones you may want to aim this mod for. Eldr's unit is only $10-15, just barely above the price of an regular electronic 2 prong flasher.

T.C.

[cywelchjr]

Hey Cy,

I have to admit that I had/have a hard time following/figuring out which wires to work on, etc.! You mention about using a DVOM to figure it out, but the description is a bit vague...for US non-Electronics trained folks! I can follow a simple wiring diagram...+ and - and such, but I think a bit more "simplistic" description may be in order for folks in general?

I'll have to review the wiring diagrams of the different years to see if they used different colored wires for the turn signal flasher connector....but I think folks would appreciate an "install for dummies" approach to this thing...ie. this colored Harness Wire goes to this part of the relay, etc.!

I know you're not quite done with this mod yet. I thought you had seen where I had talked about ELDR having made a flasher for the LED conversion that retains the self cancelling feature. So...apparently he may have figured out the circuit and what was needed to preserve the cancel feature, perhaps a PM to him might get him to SHARE his info with you, maybe even a schematic or such?? We don't want to step on his toes with regards to his Product...which replaces the OEM flasher and retains the self cancel feature for folks running LED Turn signals....his unit has a 2 amp load limit so it can't be used for OEM/incandescent lights. But folks wanting to KEEP their regular bulbs but need to replace their broken OEM flasher would be the ones you may want to aim this mod for. Eldr's unit is only $10-15, just barely above the price of an regular electronic 2 prong flasher.

T.C.

I am working on a schematic, but am as mentioned working on a bug with the mod at the moment. This mod would work with LEDs of course, but also works with regular bulbs which is really my point with it. But it's really only for those willing and able to do some wiring. I am going to try and do some refining of the descriptions and such, and VERY MUCH welcome constructive criticism of the description of the process. And I do need to make sure to get a thanks to ELDR included in the tech tip, as his tech info in his post was what enabled me to figure the rest of this out. I don't want to take full credit for this, I'm just testing, refining and documenting how to do it for the do-it-yourself-er folks out here. I'm trying to build in what ELDR did with publishing how the OEM flasher works and document how anyone should be able to mod the bike to use a 2 prong flasher and still auto cancel.

Can you add a thanks to ELDR at the top of my tech tip post please. Thanking him for the technical info on how the OEM flasher works that enabled me to put this together? I can give you precise words if you need but I think you know what I mean. Since I can edit my post over on .org I'm going to add that text to my post over there right now, he certainly deserves the credit for the first part of this.

[DAVINCI]

So, does the canceller unit go high when it cancels or does it go low?

[cywelchjr]

So, does the canceller unit go high when it cancels or does it go low?

Ah, there, a good tech question. The canceler signal goes high when it cancels. Under normal operation (when the flashers are going) the signal is low (0 volts) and goes to 12 volts to cancel.

BTW, when you start the bike, if you left the signals on, the canceler starts with the cancel line high, actually it's high as soon as you turn the key on if the signals are on.

More trivia, when you press the signal lever to the left or right, it grounds the signal line (yellow/red) to the cancel unit, telling it to turn the signals on. This is why those two contacts in the signal switch getting bent can prevent the canceler from working, cause it keeps that line low and makes the canceler think your pressing the lever to the side all the time.

[DAVINCI]

OK, I got it figured out now. Thanks.

Here's a lower voltage coil (9v) relay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/10x-JRC-21F-9V-H...item43a6d9a148

[cywelchjr]

OK, I got it figured out now. Thanks.

Here's a lower voltage coil (9v) relay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/10x-JRC-21F-9V-H...item43a6d9a148

Yeah, with a dropping resistor that would work, but I think it would exhibit the same problem, as I think at this point that the issue is that this type of relay is not designed for a continuous duty cycle like this would be subjected to. Also, the load side of this one is only 3 amps, so it would only work for LEDs.

Here's what I've found though. The cheap relay requires 80 to 85% of rated voltage to pull in, and that's under nominal conditions (that means if everything is ideal), add in getting a bit warmer than intended and it just barely fails. The NTE brand part I'm looking at, which runs about $12, is designed for continuous duty cycle, and requires only 75% of rated voltage for pull in. That actually puts us below what I'm seeing with the bike not running first thing in the morning, so that should be good. I'm going to actually go out and buy the NTE part either tonight or tomorrow night (not sure which quite yet) and install it and see how it performs. I'll also have a schematic to post up a bit later today.

[cywelchjr]

Hey Cy,

I have to admit that I had/have a hard time following/figuring out which wires to work on, etc.! You mention about using a DVOM to figure it out, but the description is a bit vague...for US non-Electronics trained folks! I can follow a simple wiring diagram...+ and - and such, but I think a bit more "simplistic" description may be in order for folks in general?

Here is a schematic of the hookups for the mod. It's based on the generic without any part number for the relay as that's still up in the air till I test the relay I'm going to try as my second go at it. But for you and others, here is the I hope, simple wiring diagram:



Hope this helps. Hopefully you can see that the relay normally has the connetions closed, and then when energized opens them up, breaking the connection. It's not an exact representation, but it should be close enough till I get it better, and it will just morph to the correct picture.

[skids]

Yep! A picture is worth a thousand words.

[crazy steve]

Cy, you might look at automotive Bosch/Tyco relays; the 12v SPDT is a very common part (more than a few OEM applications), will present less of a load to the canceller than the stock unit (but a bit more than the 'appliance' type relay you're using), has a 20A rating, and you can usually get them with a matching 'pigtailed' plug so you don't have to solder them in place. Most parts stores should carry them, if not try a stereo/alarm dealer. I've seen them as cheap as $3 (without the plug), rarely over $10 with. Designed for the environment too.

I don't think these are as picky about input voltage either....

[DAVINCI]

Cy, The way I understand your problem, the relay coil is staying on most of the time because the canceler goes high and stays high until the signals are switched again, right?

Try this. The 2mfd charges when the yel/grn goes high and in about 1/2 second the relay coil has the same potential on both sides, so the relay drops out. If you find you need more than 1/2 second, you can increase the capacitor's value.

Not as pretty as yours, but....I've used this in various alarm and lock trigger circuits when I need a momentary action to a steady 12v ON. As steve wrote, this is based on the Bosch standard. If you need, I can send you a couple of them, I've got a boatload.

[DAVINCI]

The 2mfd

Oops, that should read 2000mfd

[crazy steve]

Randy, his problem is the relay isn't staying open when it should. The voltage out of the canceller is dropping below the threshold needed to keep the relay coil energized and the contacts open. He's using NC contacts to power the flasher, which are supposed to open to stop the flashing.

The problem may just be less-than-optimal connections elsewhere in the circuit causing too much of a voltage drop, so a re-cleaning of the various switch/plug contacts might clear this up. It could also be all or partly due to voltage loss across the solid-state (?) 'contacts' in the canceller. But it also could be due to the type of relay used, as the type he used is designed for a more consistant input voltage.

[DAVINCI]

I thought (?) I read that the relay was heating, not sure how it would do that without full voltage. And to heat, it would have to be on for quite a while. I'll wait for Cy's reply before I yell D-uh!

Steve, it's heating cause it's on 90% of the time, what I've drawn will turn it off. I think even if he gets full voltage by curing some ground problem or whatever, the heating problem will still be there. The trick here is to turn that coil off.