HID Headlight

[DGXSER]

OK, so with my 5k HID headlight I will say wihtout a doubt, the bloody thing is BRIGHT!!! I would say to bright. It makes for great driving visibility, but parked at the end of my driveway I sat in my car at the other end and looking into that light all you see is the bright center of the light.

I tried it the other way with my car lights on just to have a comparison and it most decisively is not the same.

So I will most likely pull it out and put the old one back in. Especially since I went to have my daughter check for comparison and when I went to start the bike back up, the headlight did not come on again!

[TopCatGr58]

My 2 cents!

I did an HID conversion to my SUV a few months ago, using the fancy BiXenon shiftable position bulbs. I had tried all of the fancy super Halogen bulbs, but due to the high position of my headlights, they were very inadequate in illuminating the road...specifically close to the vehicle so I could properly see the road markings, pot holes, etc.! It does have the "fog" aux lights low on the frame, and as noted they only work with the LOW BEAMS, but still didn't do that great of a job.

My HID conversion puts out 2-3 times as much light as the Halogens, and as the article stated nice and close to the front of the vehicle so I could adequately see the road IN FRONT of me!

HOWEVER, I can attest to the display pattern, my LOW beam switched position appears to shine like Hi beams, and vice versa! But this can actually be a little helpful, in that when I throw the switch to the car's low beam setting, I get HI but I get to also use the AUX lights to further help show up the road close while also illuminating the road well down the road as the hi beams should.

The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, worsening your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".

I have info and discussion points CONTRARY to the above quoted text!
The bolded text is partially incorrect! Remember, I'm an EYE technician with 30+ years of experience. The pupils are just one part of the light adjustment that the eyes can control. They work just like the aperture in a camera, wider lets in more like, narrower lets in less. Their assumption of smaller pupils in the dark would worsen your distance vision is BUNK!

We perform laser vision correction on patients, and inform patients, especially young ones...20-30 y/o's, that if they have large pupils...~7+mm in the dark, that they can suffer starburst and halo affects from points of light while night driving due to their pupils dilating larger than the ~7mm central optical treatment zone. And I'm sure that many/most of you have had eye exams and have had your pupils medicinally dilated, your overall vision is aggravated, because your eyes are letting in TOO MUCH light...more so in the day time, but can also be bad at night.

We have a testing device called a PINHOLE occluder, which acts like a pinhole camera...no lens, it just blocks out all other light rays except the ones that are coming essentially straight/parallel into the eyes, and a person's vision will improve considerably with the use of this pinhole vs. their own eyes alone...when they have refractive errors that would require corrective glasses/lenses. Small pupils enhance a person's distance vision!!!
You can simulate the same by just SQUINTING..making small slits in your eyelids blocking out extraneous light rays and only letting in mostly parallel already in focus light rays.

The other light adjustment the eyes perform is electrochemical...the actual receptors inside the eyes...the rods and cones. We are DAYLIGHT animals, the very center of our retinas are packed with just CONES...the color perceiving DAYLIGHT receptors...there are NO RODs in the MACULA area. The macula is the central highest concentration of receptors to provide us with the hi resolution vision to see fine details far far away. As the retina continues outward from the macula, the cones loose their density, and the rods increase. The rods are our LOW LIGHT black and white/shades receptors to provide us with visual perception in lower light situations. It takes considerably more light to activate our CONES than our RODS, but in the center of our vision we have mostly CONES, and so we need a fair amount of light energy to be able to see sharply with them. Military ships use RED lighting at night which doesn't use up our Rod/night receptor chemicals, that way lookouts can see in the dark on deck to be able to see silouettes against the horizon and such.

There is a different type of chemical needed for the RODs to function, and it is used up fairly quickly in excessive light exposures, and takes time for our body and metabolism to recharge these receptors with that chemical. You've experienced this affect as children going to the afternoon matine` movie, walked into the dark theater, and you can barely see to find your seat, but after 5-10 minutes, you've become dark adapted, and you can see almost everything in the theater...but then you walk outside thru the exit door and BLAM, you're hit with SUNSHINE, and it's like someone's flashed a 1000 watt bulb directly into your eyes, and it takes a few moments to get readjusted to the bright light.

So..now we can talk about social implications of driving, aging, and SUV's, etc.! 20-30 years ago, we had much dimmer lighting technology, very few SUVS, and a lot less of them/cars on the road anyways, and we were all younger! Now, a majority of us are baby boomers, 50+, many SUV's with high positioned/mounted headlights, and even regular halogens, very bright right in our faces! Remember our driver's ed training...look at the ROAD not the oncoming headlights! Also with our population aging, the most common eye ailment is cataract...a clouding of the natural lens that acts like a fog in your eyes, scattering ALL light coming in, whether it be sunlight, headlight, etc.! Many/most of the aged that I deal with state that they don't drive much at night because of their recognized diminished vision due to headlight glare. As we age, our pupils tend to become smaller and don't dilate much in the dark anyways, and our metabolism slows down, and we have slowly clouding lenses, and aside from having light shining directly into our eyes, having MORE LIGHT on the road does help US see better!

Our bikes are not that tall, and the position of our headlights are not nearly as high as many SUV's, so I for one would not be as worried about the glare/scatter affect to oncoming traffic provided you had a decent pattern on the road and down the road. If they are bothered by the glare, then they'll steer AWAY from it, and at least they will SEE ME!

And it'll be interesting to see what our safety inspectors say about my SUV conversion...I'll try to swap the wires so that the switched low beam lever position IS low beam, and hi is hi! And I've also noted that I can see road signs and reflector markers much farther down the road than with my old halogens!

T.C.

[natemoen]

Actually people have a much higher tendancy to steer towards the bright lights, its called target fixation. That's is why people run into the rear end of cop cars on the side of the road with their lights on. So no, people won't steer away from you, they will steer towards you as they are blinded by your light.

[TopCatGr58]

Yeah Nate,

After I posted that, I remembered something about that, and have seen examples of that occurring. I live in a rather congested metropolis area, and a majority of the local roads and highways are DIVIDED, many with JERSEY walls separating traffic. At least I'll be able to SEE them coming at me and possibly be able to maneuver away from them!

All joking aside, I've encountered the vehicles with the superbright HIDs and even though they are rather bright and glaring, they only bother me IF I look directly at them. If I look at the road in front of me I have no problems seeing the road and ignoring the glare of the headlights. I'm 53 y/o, have no signs of cataract formation, and my pupils are smaller due to my age, about 3-4mm in size.

Again it can come down to people driving beyond their physical abilities to see properly in adverse lighting conditions due to their age, cataract, macular degeneration, old scratched glasses, dirty smoky/smudgy windshields, etc..

Perhaps you've seen the MISC tech tip I posted about US bikers being almost invisible to cagers...and that's during the daylight, with the minimum vision requirements that DMV's require for folks to still be permitted to PILOT a cage, it's scary for sure.

So it can come down to the discussion of whether "we" have to cater to the POORLY equipped/healthed drivers and their visual weaknesses to tone down the amount of brightness in our headlights....or realistically restrict these people from attempting to drive at NIGHT when they can't see properly to do so!?

As our population ages(baby boomers), these types of problems will increase, and night driving and glare is one of the major evaluation techniques we use to help determine IF a person's cataracts have reached the point of causing a visual hinderance. We have a specially calibrated light source on a dome shaped bell with a 1/2" hole in the middle, that folks have to try to look thru and see what they can still see with that level of glare on their eyes, and if they only loose from 20/20 to 20/40 vision, they then QUALIFY for cataract surgery according to the insurance criteria of visual impairment, since 20/40 is the minimum vision requirement for night driving.

T.C.

[natemoen]

I agree that if people are unimpaired and paying attention to their driving they will be able to overcome the brightness/annoyance of extra bright glaring light, BUT impaired and inattentive describes the good majority of drives, especially during the times that the light is most needed.

I will admit that I was previously looking at doing an HID conversion but did not know that it actually is illegal. Considering i am trying to get back into law enforcement after changing states, I now know I cant since any law violation is grounds for dismissal, so that's a big N O.

[DGXSER]

Hoestly, this bit of it beng Illegal is bit of a stretch....no...alot of a stretch. I have researched this and in Ohio, there is nothing on the books against these HID conversions. Nothing states that my MC has to meet the FMVSS 108.

Now, it appears that the conversion kits may not meet the standards set up in FMVSS 108, but then I am sure there is some FMVSS that addresses electrical system components, and I bet you can find one that would say the fuse box has to be tested or maybe even UL approved. Are you going to go back to the stock fuse box? Cause I am certain it has not been UL approved for this application and I doubt it has been subjected to any FMVSS testing.

[natemoen]

If you have ever had a pre employment law enforcement background investigation you would understand. They get farther up your a** than your doctor did during your last colonoscopy. They are trying to find ANYTHING to disqualify you, and when you are competing with 1000 other people for one position you don't want to give them something.

[crazy steve]

Honestly, this bit of it being Illegal is bit of a stretch....no...alot of a stretch. I have researched this and in Ohio, there is nothing on the books against these HID conversions. Nothing states that my MC has to meet the FMVSS 108..

Most states will have a sentence somewhere in their vehicle code that effectively says they must meet and or be equipped to the FMVSS standards in effect at the time of manufacture if they don't spell it out in individual sections. But not all states do that, so there is some 'wiggle room'. Ohio is interesting... their statutes are pretty vague, but does state that the highway patrol can set 'standards' for equipment for inspection purposes, but those aren't published, so you won't know you have a problem until you run into John Law.

As far as these being illegal on a federal level, there's no doubt they are; the DOT has said so, multiple times. But it's up to the states to enforce vehicle regulations inside their borders, so they may not be illegal per se in your state. Virtually all of these kits are coming out of China and they've demonstrated time and again that they don't care much about other countries laws. Try to find one of these made anywhere else...

While I'm all in favor of better lighting, poorly designed/aimed lights that blind oncoming drivers aren't an 'improvement' IMO, and I'd like to see every one of them ticketed. There's some morons around here with these 'conversions' and it's nearly impossible to see the road when you meet these idiots. My defense is a pair of 'almost melt them into a pool' high-wattage high beams (4 headlight car) that can overwhelm even these, but now I'm blinding them, so that's not much better.

[DGXSER]

Nate, I fully understand exactly what your talking about. My wife is an attourney, try filing to take the bar exam. A fairly long yet intersting story goes with her filing for the bar, so I will just suffice to say, yes, I know exactly what your saying about your concern. I also have a great friend who applied for a position on our local police force. He tested in the top 5%, met every physical and mental exam with flying colors, but at the end of the process was not selected. So again, I get your concern, I am not condemning or disagreeing with you having that concern. But your concern over your future employment does not make something illegal.

[cywelchjr]

I don't know about all states. But I do know that Ca does specify that vehicles must have DOT approved head and tail lights. They also require DOT approved turn signals for anything manufactured after like 1927 or something like that. And if you give them the slightest excuse, the make you get a brake and light inspection and then you have a salvage title (jerks!). And to top it off, they hold periods of max enforcement specifically for motorcycles AND they impound them for non-compliance with safety equipment regs (and lights and brakes classify as safety equipment).

Something to remember however, you must be in compliance with any state you ride your bike into. This means that even if your HID headlight is considered OK in your state, when you cross the state line, you could end up in deep trouble if the state you just rode into has a serious case of a$$ about them, and apparently some states are starting to get that. Here's another issue, if the feds decide that because they are illegal at the federal level, and cross state lines, plus were imported, and maybe even illegally imported, they may go after those with them not for vehicle violations, but rather for importation violations.

[Crazcnuk]

Sorry, Craz, while I have agreed with you many times in the past, your statement above is without doubt the most 'head in the sand' attitude I have seen from you yet.

"There is 'truckloads' of research and "proof" out there. "

There is actually very little 'proof'. I can make up an article and claim crap like that too. Like the minor arc is going to make a huge difference. did you know that filaments vibrate? I've seen that article before, and I am sure he got paid well for that load.

All the proof, I need, is that I have never met anyone who put an HID in, and then took it off.

Well, that and I ACTUALLY HAVE HIDs, and love them.

Most of his article predisposes poorly made, or 'fake' bulbs made to look like real ones.

Any idiot knows that. But what about properly made ones to proper specs? The same specs that Mercedes, Lexus and BMW use?

I can go out and link you a few hundred happy customers.

As for blinding people, you are again, choosing to ignore the principles, that I state over and over YOUR HEADLIGHTS HAVE TO BE CORRECTLY AIMED no matter what kind of lights you have.

Almost a l the bulbs people complain about that are seen on the road are A) not HID, but high wattage halogens, B) poorly installed, C) installed in the wrong housings, and/or D (and this is my favorite) DELIBERATELY aimed too high, because of the same misconceptions that have been talked about. ( look how far mine go, no look how far mine go.)

People often feel they are not getting enough light, downroad, and adjust thier lights UP in order to give the illusion of better lighting.

You cannot go by what's roaming on our highways.

WIth the ST I have an electrically adjustable headlight, so I can raise/lower my headlights +/-8deg from the dash.

If people are flashing me I can just lower them a bit.

Personally, it's not the bright that bothers me in oncoming cars, it's some of the funky colors. Which is another mistake. The clearest color, for humans is ~4300K, but many people go for blue or purple, whcich we can't see as well thus effectively lowering the amount of light you can use.

But Believe what you want.

[cywelchjr]

Well, I can't speak for all areas, but my research has shown that at least my my state they ARE illegal unless the vehicle came with them from the factory (ok, the law says unless DOT approved, but the ONLY systems that are DOT approved are those that are factory installed in new vehicles, there are NO DOT approved aftermarket systems whatsoever). I don't know what Canadian laws are on that stuff, and since I don't live there, and since I won't be going there with anything that isn't legal in my own location where I live, that means I won't have any HID headlights that aren't OEM, at least not until the laws change.

Any U.S. States that require DOT approved lights on motor vehicles then have the same requirements, as that makes aftermarket HID lights illegal, since there are NO aftermarket HID conversion kits that are DOT approved. Until such a time as there are, they WILL be a problem in any state that requires DOT approved lights on vehicles on the road and AFAIK that is actually most if not all states even if it's buried somewhere. Just because some type of light is sold by a motorcycle dealer or an auto part store doesn't mean it's legal for street use, much of that stuff is marked "for off road use only", but fools put them on and use them on the road anyways, and then cry when they get a big money ticket for having them on their street vehicle (or worse, get it impounded).

[crazy steve]

...since there are NO aftermarket HID conversion kits that are DOT approved...

Actually, there are/were some 'legal' HID kits available (although it's been a while since I've seen them). Not cheap (the cheapest bike kit I've seen was over $400), but these replaced everything and weren't some cheesy bulb/ballast 'conversion'. Not a 'moving bulb' type, but a OEM-style projector type with a new reflector/lens with the 'correct' solenoid-operated shutter. And all kits that I've seen were purpose-built for specific vehicles; no 'universal' models.

Getting DOT approval isn't all that hard; simply submit a sample for testing at an approved lab, pass the test, then do the paperwork with the DOT. These 'kits' have been tested, and they don't pass.

Craz; as far as there being no 'proof' about these... well, I don't know what to say. I guess you need the bright lighting 'cause your head is somewhere where you need light...

[b.walker5]

....
But Believe what you want.

Ditto...

Agreeing to disagree.

[James England]

Better yet, here's an in-depth explanation of why not to convert to HID...

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html

I think this link says it all, as far as I'm concerned. It's bad enough being dazzled by these lights (which I have been on ever increasing occasions) but I'd hate to ride my bike, dazzle an oncoming driver with my amazing output of incredible HID light... and find that the driver, dazzled, swerves across the road and hits me head on. That's not what I would call a safer bulb.

I don't really see what the problem is with the OEM headlamp, to be honest. Are people saying that it's not adequate for use at night? I've never found that to be the case. The onset of darkness surely means that one modifies one's driving accordingly anyway? Is the object of HID lights to emit so much light that it's possible to continue riding as if it were daylight... ie no reduction in speed, and no extra caution?

It seems to me that night riding is, and should be, different from daytime. There are nocturnal hazards about (eg deer, low-flying owls etc) which couldn't care less what bulb you're using when they splat into you at high speed. Roads can be damper and more slippery after dusk and therefore less tolerant of speed.

People have said the bulbs are illegal. The video link clearly says that the bulb patterns do not suit halogen reflectors. I've been dazzled several times by these things and certainly don't want to inflict that on other road users (especially ones heading towards me). Plus, the HID lamps seem VERY unreliable when compared to the tried and tested filament bulb. They seem pointless to me and I certainly won't be fitting one. I'll tone down my riding at night, be sensible regarding other road users, modify my speed accordingly and acknowledge that night time isn't day time. That seems a lot safer to me than using an unreliable bulb which is mostly illegal and certainly the cause of a lot of controversy