HID Headlight

[b.walker5]

Over here they're illegal unless they're factory fitted in a reflector designed for them. They get checked as part of our mandatory six monthly 'warrant of fitness' inspection and the vehicle fails if the inspector picks them up, and most inspectors know what theyre looking for.

The rationale behind it is that the light scatter from a reflector not designed for the high output has a serious risk of blinding approaching road users and creating a major hazard.

My personal experience with them is exactly that. A friend of mine has them fitted to his pickup and they're nearly impossible to look at on high beam, and damned hard on low. The road disappears in front of approaching drivers, kinda like a possum in the headlights. He has them set up properly but the reflector just isnt designed for them and the light scatter is very obvious. He has it rigged so he can change bulbs and revert to standard wiring for a warrant and changes them back afterwards.

He's been 'Green Stickered' twice at roadside safety checks for 'non compliant fittings' and copped a $200 fine each time, but he sticks with them.

I'd love to have one on my 11 but don't think I can be bothered with the hassle.

[Crazcnuk]

I highly doubt that is the reason. The light 'spot' in an HID is in exactly the same place is in any bulb of the same designation. That's why it's a standard.

The reflector is no different for an HID than for any headlight bulb. They are all designed to take the glare from the filament (flame in HID) and reflect it to the same place on the road.

It's likely more a problem that the HID companies haven't paid thier millions of $ to get approval yet, or they are still in the 'testing' delay phase that all new products have to go through.

Never try and make sense of gov't licencing.

If they just ticketed ALL vehicles with poorly aimed headlights, it wouldn't be an issue, or as I have suggested make them for high beam use only where you're not supposed to have them on when traffic is oncoming at all.

How many cars/trucks do you come across that have the 'fog' or 'driving lights' aimed all over the place. Now in thier infinite stupidity North american car makers are making the extra driving lights stay on, with the low beams, where they are useless. not hte high beams where they could be of use, and far less annoying.

[b.walker5]

Sorry, Doubt it or not, it makes no difference to the fact that it IS the reason. The reflector designed for HID is VERY different to that designed for Halogen or Incandescant.

There has been considerable design research gone into reflectors to match lamps, and the wrong one can have a major impact on the efficency of the lamp.

Start your reading here, http://www.my-gti.com/734/retrofitti...ector-housings and then look for more, there's plenty of it.

I take your point on poorly aimed headlights, but it's not a huge problem here because we have very high standards that have to met before the vehicle is allowed on the road. Sure' there's vehicles out there being used without WOF's but they get picked up pretty quick and arent on the roads for long.

[crazy steve]

I agree with Brian on this; a reflector assembly designed for halogen won't cut it for a HID lamp. The 'example 2' (link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVuSS...eature=related) clearly shows this.

Even with halogen, reflector design makes a huge difference. I upgraded one of my other bikes with a Cibie headlight, and the difference in reflector/lens optics was breathtaking. Mind you, both the OEM and the Cibie use the same lamp, but the focus is so much better. Putting a brighter lamp into a marginal reflector will give you more light, but the light scatter for oncoming drivers is a bad thing.

[Crazcnuk]

Says you.

You have any proof of this? The refelctor does not care what the light source is, what color it is or anything else. The only thing that matters is where the light source is relative to the reflector.

I don't think they have been doing much design engineering of headlights, to increase visibility, since the 1950s, other than the bulbs.

All the engineering of headlight reflectors has been to make them fit into the odd body styles, while at least meeting minimum lighting requirements.

This is why we are finding the Halogen lights insufficient, lately, even though they were so awesome when they came out in the late 70s.

Even then, there were huge differences between the 'normal' oem replacement halogen lights and 'real' aftermarket ones made by companies like Bosch, Cibie, Lucas, etc.

Technically, those 'driving' lights were also not approved as headlights, but we used them anyway.

Industry is not about what's good, it's about putting out the cheapest product for the most markup.

Best headlights I ever had were on my 1978 Pinto SW and VW Beetles ( Bosch Driving lights) Event the quad Halogens on The '79 Belaire weren't as good, but I but were better than what many cars have now.

[Crazcnuk]

"both the OEM and the Cibie use the same lamp"

I rest my case.

Yes you can buy better reflectors, but as you pointed out, the bulb doesn't matter.

The only difference here is how much light each bulb produces.

[crazy steve]

"both the OEM and the Cibie use the same lamp"

I rest my case.

Yes you can buy better reflectors, but as you pointed out, the bulb doesn't matter.

The only difference here is how much light each bulb produces.

Ah, but the bulb does matter. One thing everybody seems to be missing here is the halogen lamps have a mechanical shield to give the low-beam cut-off, something the HID lamps lack. Those try to emulate this by changing the high/low focus point but it's not fully effective as the video link shows. You're not getting the same clean cut-off on low beam, so glare for oncoming drivers is the result.

[DGXSER]

I have a plan for a test of all this. When the weather around her cooperates, I am going to put a camera mounted on my tripod at an equivalent height to a driver of an avg size car. Take it to a long empty parking lot I know of, and video tape my bike coming at it just as on a road. Yes, the windshield effect will be missing, but it will still show the amount of light being put out and where. Then I want to repea the same test driving my F150 past the camera. That should give definitive comparison. The headlights of both the bike and the truck are at similar heights.

Yes, it will not show meter results, but really, I could give an eff about the meter results, I want to know is the headlight blinding other drivers.

[crazy steve]

What I find interesting in all this is most are spending around $70-80 for these conversions into a 30 year old headlight, when for that kind of money there's better alternatives. While a brighter bulb will throw out more light, better optics can do the same with the same bulb and not cause problems for oncoming traffic. Look here: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/home.html. Yes, this won't offer the 'power savings' of HID, but isn't the real goal better safe lighting? Of particular interest is the link to the NHTSA 'glare docket'; some digging around in that will reveal a manufacturer who submitted a HID conversion for approval but it failed. These simply won't pass without a purpose-built HID type reflector.

If you have a Special, the Cibie reflector/lens assemblies are plug-and-play. You could do a standard square light but some fab work would be needed for mounting, but it's nothing that I see as insurmountable.

[Crazcnuk]

"but isn't the real goal better safe lighting? "

Can't have both?

You can believe whatever you want. If you believe the 'man' and want to run around with inferior lighting, despite first hand accounts of those of us that use them, have at it.

But while you truly believe that reflector designers have been working overtime to make your lighting better, in the same breath you seem to think the bulb designers are stupid. They designed these bulbs to fit into STANDARD housings.

Personally, I don't care what you think, I have HIDs, and I LOVE THEM, in the existing housings.

Yes, I could spend lots more money and put on other lighting, but that's not the point.

The point is If you want a LOT more light with less draw on an overtaxed system, then an HID is the way to go.

The HID is, hands down, better than the stock lighting.

But you do what you want. (Looks down at the new HID kit that just came in for the ST1300)

For those that are a little more open-minded, here is a tip. If you are putting an HID into a motorcycle that uses two headlights, buy the kit for a car (that uses the same bulb type), it will be half the price and they are the same thing. HID has no filament so vibration is not an issue.

[crazy steve]

Better yet, here's an in-depth explanation of why not to convert to HID...

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html

[jwhughes3]

Thanks Steve...

That was a very informative link - I never really thought about the shape of the light source in that way before - I wasn't really planning an HID conversion, but if I decide I need more light at speed I will look to add LED driving lights instead.

John

[crazy steve]

What I particularly found interesting in that was the 'perceived' vs actual lighting performance. That applies to driving lights too, because if they're aimed wrong (filling the 'hole' close to the vehicle), that can reduce the sensitivity of your eyes and even if you have 'good' light down the road, you can't 'see' it. There's more to good lights than just having a lot of it; where it is is important too...

[b.walker5]

Says you.

You have any proof of this? The refelctor does not care what the light source is, what color it is or anything else. The only thing that matters is where the light source is relative to the reflector.

I don't think they have been doing much design engineering of headlights, to increase visibility, since the 1950s, other than the bulbs.

Start Rant:

Sorry, Craz, while I have agreed with you many times in the past, your statement above is without doubt the most 'head in the sand' attitude I have seen from you yet.

There is 'truckloads' of research and "proof" out there.

A quote from one of them.

"When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the characteristics of the light source are the driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses: You can probably make them fit on your face OK, but you wont see properly"

The reflector might not care what the light source is, but that doesnt mean it's going to work properly, and it sure as hell matters to the oncoming driver.

Did you not read any of the links posted ?? or is it as you stated in a later post that you simply dont care? I suspect the latter but let me tell you, refusing to believe the truth doesnt make it any less true.

Rant Over.

To those considering a conversion, I would urge you to do the research and make an informed decision. If you dont care about others on the road then go for it, but if you dont want to be responsible for driving someone off the road, and possibly killing them, with blinding lights then consider your options very carefully first. There's plenty of info on them out there, all you have to do is look.

[DGXSER]

Now, here is an interesting twist to all this testing and data. It all points to how you need to have a cutoff type lamp to keep the reflection down toward the road. Well, the lmap I have and am using does in fact have a cutoff shield built into it. It can only install one direction, and in that orientation, it is the down side of the lamp which becomes the upward reflected lighting that is cut off.

I certainly will not speak to what goes on in other countries. And I by all means am NOT a conspiracy theorist. But I do know the fact that in the USA, money buys everything. And that means, you can come up with an amazing new product, and as long as the product you are replacing or making obsolete is worth more in profits to a large corporation than the cost of "lobbying" the government to consider it a dangerous unproven product. It will be just that. And who says that the testing they are doing is appropriate or accurate with this type of light? Those test were developed for halogen technology. Perhaps the testing is not accurate for light in the wave lengths that these HID are producing?

Again, all the test results indicate that what is needed to keep the glare from effecting oncoming traffic is the cutoff shield. Mine has one. But I still want to at least park the bike at the end of the drive about, 70-80 feet, with the headlight on and see what it looks like from the driver seat of my car. After all, if it is blinding a driver, the life it cost could liekly be mine when they hit me!!