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  • Special Owners! Check Your Rotors!

    I thought I'd throw this out here, as this may be the reason why some Special owners have had trouble aligning their rotors/calipers. This shouldn't apply to standards, but may be something to look at if swapping rotors around, particularly between models. I mentioned this in another post, but though it might be good to call more attention to this.

    It's been stated here many times that all XS rotors will interchange and are dimensionally identical, with the only 'different' ones being the slotted versions. The parts fiche backs this up, as it only lists three kinds; 'standard' non-slotted rotors and the two left/right slotted ones. But this may not be true, as I have two rotors (out of ten) that are not identical to the others. The difference is in the 'dish' or 'offset'; the majority of mine measure as .750" from the mounting face to the outer friction surface, while the other two measure at .810", for a difference of .060". This can't be accounted for by wear, as all check within .015" of each other for disc thickness.

    Here's my thought; the Specials require you to align the rotor and caliper by moving the fork slider one way or the other in the axle clamp. But this can put your fork tubes out of parallel, introducing 'stiction' and wear problems. I think this is the main reason the Specials have bushings on the bottom of the fork tubes and the standards don't; the bushings help reduce friction and reduce wear. But what if the tolerance 'stack-up' requires a large movement of the fork tube to get alignment, maybe more than the engineers intended? I suspect this was an issue and the fix was these 'different' rotors (only used on the production line) to prevent problems on the new bikes. So if you have replaced or swapped around your rotors and had trouble with this, check for this. I'll note that one of these 'oddballs' was off a low-mile unmolested Special, and the other was on a standard that did show signs of having had bits replaced, so who knows on that one.

    Maybe someone could verify this on some other rotors...
    Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

    '78E original owner - resto project
    '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
    '82 XJ rebuild project
    '80SG restified, red SOLD
    '79F parts...
    '81H more parts...

    Other current bikes:
    '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
    '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
    '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
    Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
    Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

  • #2
    I feel as though I read something about this in some old posts once when I was going through reading posts about brakes. Don't remember specifics but it was something about dish differences.
    Nathan
    KD9ARL

    μολὼν λαβέ

    1978 XS1100E
    K&N Filter
    #45 pilot Jet, #137.5 Main Jet
    OEM Exhaust
    ATK Fork Brace
    LED Dash lights
    Ammeter, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, and Volt Meters

    Green Monster Coils
    SS Brake Lines
    Vision 550 Auto Tensioner

    In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

    Theodore Roosevelt

    Comment


    • #3
      That was probably me Nate, but at the time I couldn't figure out why there would be different rotors. This is the only explanation that makes sense.

      The only reason I found this was as I was building my parts for my 4-piston caliper swap, I was just slipping the rotors on the wheel for 'test fits', using whichever rotor was at hand. All of a sudden my measurements changed and I couldn't understand why if all the rotors were the same... well, they're not...
      Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

      '78E original owner - resto project
      '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
      '82 XJ rebuild project
      '80SG restified, red SOLD
      '79F parts...
      '81H more parts...

      Other current bikes:
      '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
      '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
      '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
      Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
      Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

      Comment


      • #4
        Perhaps one of mine?

        Originally posted by natemoen View Post
        I feel as though I read something about this in some old posts once when I was going through reading posts about brakes. Don't remember specifics but it was something about dish differences.
        Hi Nate,
        way back, I posted about front XS650 & all XS11 brake rotors being interchangeable.
        I added a caveat that the two-piece rotors from pre '77 XS650s would NOT interchange because they were dished differently.
        Fred Hill, S'toon
        XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
        "The Flying Pumpkin"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fredintoon View Post
          ...way back, I posted about front XS650 & all XS11 brake rotors being interchangeable...
          The whole point of this post is the fact that not all XS11 rotors are identical/interchangable, contrary to 'accepted' wisdom. The two oddball ones I have are proof of that. While .060" may not seem like a lot (less than 1/16th of an inch and not something you'd readily see with a naked eye), when you're talking machined pieces it is. This is more than enough to cause rotor/caliper/caliper bracket misalignment on any model of XS if you've swapped rotors around.

          I doubt if these 'deeper' rotors are common; more than likely, you'll only find them on some Specials that may not have met the specified production line tolerances, but that's just a guess...
          Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

          '78E original owner - resto project
          '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
          '82 XJ rebuild project
          '80SG restified, red SOLD
          '79F parts...
          '81H more parts...

          Other current bikes:
          '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
          '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
          '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
          Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
          Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

          Comment


          • #6
            Steve, that's a good point with the difference of the rotors throwing the fork alignment out. On my Special with it's original rotors, both rotors are not in the center of the fork bracket. I align my forks by removing the springs and fully compressing the forks and then tightening the pinch bolt.
            2H7 (79)
            3H3

            "If it ain't broke, modify it"

            ☮

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry to dig up this old thread, but I have been having problems installing front calipers on my SF, and wondered if this issue was relevant. I rebuilt the caliper, and have the piston completely depressed. I'm using new pads, and I can't get the caliper bolted up with binding and locking down the rotor. I have the correct angled pads in each side ( I think ) I had previously removed the rotors to clean and paint this winter, so they may not be replaced on their original side. Could that be a problem, or could I have something else screwed up?
              1979 Yamaha XS1100SF (gone)
              Airbox w/K&N element
              Jardine 4 into 1
              145 mains, 45 pilots

              1996 Ducati 900SS CR
              1977 Kawasaki KZ900-A5
              1975 Honda CB550K

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by EricHa View Post
                ....I had previously removed the rotors to clean and paint this winter, so they may not be replaced on their original side. Could that be a problem, or could I have something else screwed up?
                Yes it could. The only way to accurately check these is to set them on a smooth flat surface ('outside' facing up) and see if they're the same. If the 'dish' isn't the same on both, you'll see it. If you do have one of these 'deeper' rotors, install it on the side where the axle pinch bolt is. Torque the axle bolt (but not the pinch bolt) and check to see if the rotors are 'centered' in the slots on the forks. It should be on the axle bolt side, it may not be on the pinch bolt side. You may have to push/pull the slider to get the rotor centered, then tighten the pinch bolt. That should allow the calipers to go on without dragging....

                Also make sure your speedo drive is aligned right and firmly against the fork.
                Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

                '78E original owner - resto project
                '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
                '82 XJ rebuild project
                '80SG restified, red SOLD
                '79F parts...
                '81H more parts...

                Other current bikes:
                '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
                '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
                '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
                Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
                Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Steve! I will try this tonight. What a great forum.
                  1979 Yamaha XS1100SF (gone)
                  Airbox w/K&N element
                  Jardine 4 into 1
                  145 mains, 45 pilots

                  1996 Ducati 900SS CR
                  1977 Kawasaki KZ900-A5
                  1975 Honda CB550K

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by crazy steve View Post
                    - - - set them on a smooth flat surface ('outside' facing up) and see if they're the same. If the 'dish' isn't the same on both, you'll see it. - - -
                    Hi Steve,
                    WTF? I've been happily assuming that "rotors is rotors" and they were all the same.
                    (not the 2-part rotors from early XS650s, I know they have a different dish height.)
                    Is it a tolerance thing or are they deliberately made in different heights?
                    Fred Hill, S'toon
                    XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
                    "The Flying Pumpkin"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Fred, I've got two rotors in my 'spares' collection with that different dish. Like I said, unless you compare/check them, you'll never see the difference; they look identical. Both came off XS11s too...

                      I've learned to be a bit distrustful of the parts fiche, as I've found other parts they claim are the same but aren't, quite....
                      Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

                      '78E original owner - resto project
                      '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
                      '82 XJ rebuild project
                      '80SG restified, red SOLD
                      '79F parts...
                      '81H more parts...

                      Other current bikes:
                      '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
                      '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
                      '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
                      Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
                      Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        rotors marked with R

                        The rotors are stamped with an R for right & rear.
                        The left one has no stamp. I guess they are different.
                        Tom Clisham

                        Age is relative YOU WON"T GET OLD TIL YOU SELL THE BIKE
                        _____________________________________________

                        '78xs1100E ,all stock & original GONE TO WISCONSIN

                        '80 SG Vetter fairing,hard bags,trunk,fork brace,
                        stock headers with fishtail mufflers,black & beautiful GONE TO ARIZONA

                        79SF lowered,jardine 4/2 exhaust,pod filters,drilled rotors,fork brace, bar hopper

                        79SF 1 owner,8000 miles, restoring to completely original ( I hope) GONE TO FRANCE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tom clisham View Post
                          The rotors are stamped with an R for right & rear.
                          The left one has no stamp. I guess they are different.
                          Only the slotted ones are marked....
                          Fast, Cheap, Reliable... Pick any two

                          '78E original owner - resto project
                          '78E ???? owner - Modder project FJ forks, 4-piston calipers F/R, 160/80-16 rear tire
                          '82 XJ rebuild project
                          '80SG restified, red SOLD
                          '79F parts...
                          '81H more parts...

                          Other current bikes:
                          '93 XL1200 Anniversary Sportster 85RWHP
                          '86 XL883/1200 Chopper
                          '82 XL1000 w/1450cc Buell, Baker 6-speed, in-progress project
                          Cage: '13 Mustang GT/CS with a few 'custom' touches
                          Yep, can't leave nuthin' alone...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My Lh has different offsets. I forget the number but the rear one is slightly different than the front ones. The Groove cut in them is also deeper on the rear than the front set.
                            2-79 XS1100 SF
                            2-78 XS1100 E Best bike Ever
                            80 XS 1100 SG Big bore kit but not fully running yet.
                            Couple of more parts bikes of which 2 more will live!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I didn't make much progress on this tonight. Promised my 8 yr old daughter some vintage Batman episodes before bed. I did realize that I neglected the process detailed in the Clymer manual for SF's, page 194...

                              Torque axle nut to 76 ft lbs, pump forks several times, move right fork sideways until left hand disc is centered within caliper assy. Then tighten axle pinch bolt to 14.5 lb lbs.

                              Could that be my problem? Tweaking fork to align, slanted pads? Seems like a hodge-podge setup on an otherwise well engineered machine. (Awaiting Yamaha god thunder clap...) I had just tightened the axle nut and proceeded to install caliper, did no right fork tweaking.
                              Last edited by EricHa; 03-05-2012, 10:31 PM.
                              1979 Yamaha XS1100SF (gone)
                              Airbox w/K&N element
                              Jardine 4 into 1
                              145 mains, 45 pilots

                              1996 Ducati 900SS CR
                              1977 Kawasaki KZ900-A5
                              1975 Honda CB550K

                              Comment

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