Top end query;

[dbeardslee]

IIRC you don't have any baffles in your exhaust - just the restrictors, correct? That being the case, I'd set them right in the middle and then don't screw with them again until you've got your carbs properly tuned. I wouldn't remove them, as these motors need some back pressure to run right, and straight pipes are a PITA to get tuned properly. Best thing to do would be to put the proper exhaust on it, but going with what you've got setting them in the middle should give you the biggest adjustment on the restrictors. Here's my reasoning - if they're set in the middle and you're carbs are 'in the blue' there, then you should be able to lean them some by opening the restrictor, or richen them up by closing the restrictor. I assume you were looking for some adjustability hence the restrictors. Again, while you're tuning the carbs put them in one place and don't screw with them, cause they're definitely going to confuse things at the carbs if you do.

[tibor]

hey okie, just curious, what did you find what was causing all that metal collection in your oil pan?

[jmnjrpa]

tibor

Okie's been banned but you can catch him here http://xs11.46.forumer.com/

[MindWebs]

i see your point dbeardslee and it makes sence to me.

that's seems like a very logical to go about doing it.

The HD mufflers are stock and unmodified from what i can tell.
there is baffeling inside the discharge end, so i believe these haven't been punched out.

i'm not looking to be obnoxiously loud, i'm just cheap and these look nice.

i have seen a few sets of stock mufflers come up on ebay but they are usually quite pricey. (yes i'm cheap). I'm sure you are right about the factory exhaust being tuned for maximum power, i have read that about my S1 and the 250 ninja.

if i swap to F1's or muzzy's on the ninja i lose bottem end and it's a known issue.

so i'll set the restrictors "midway" which seems to be 50-55 degree rotation.
that alows me good movement in either direction.

65 degrees seems to restict to the point of holding the engine back.
45 degrees seems to allow close to free flow, only minor hindrence of exhaust.

i've got the jets ordered, george is shipping them out on wednesday as soon as he gets them.. guess he had to order them.

wow.. that guys great to deall with. and at 2.09 a jet (shipped)
ya can't beat his prices.

so now i sit and wait....

Thanks again dbeardslee!!!
you are my new hero

i'll let you all know how it works out.

thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!

[dbeardslee]

The HD mufflers are stock and unmodified from what i can tell.
there is baffeling inside the discharge end, so i believe these haven't been punched out.

My bad - I was thinking they're open pipes. DGXSER cut up his post-wreck stock exhaust to see what was in it and it had a restrictor before the baffles. If the harley mufflers have the same kind of arrangement, then it might be a good idea to remove the restrictor. I'm thinkin' it might create too much back pressure that way.

[MindWebs]

That's confirms the story that yamy put a small fortune into tuning this bike..

it's obvious but those pictures that the exhaust is very very calibrated.

hmm... i'll be short on the ponies for sure.

well, like i said, i'm not against factory exhaust. i just don't have any laying around at the moment. so we'll keep plugging away at re-jetting and see where we end up.

jets are more reasonable then expected i had surfed a bit and pulled up $4-6 per jet and was seeing 100-150 in jets to find the right sizes for my application.

at that price i can start looking at factory pipes.

HD pipes, Too much backpresure?????

Not likely.

no serieously, these are tuned for much bigger pulses from the engine
so the smaller pulses (4 cyl.) are not impeded by the tuning/restrictor plates.

i have tryed running with my restictors fully open, it runs way to lean and has no power at all. but with no load, you can rev it and it goes from idle to red line instantly.

so based on that test i don't believe that they are causing to much resistance.

could i be wrong? .... ..... Always.

but these are my educated guesses

[dbeardslee]

If the harley mufflers don't have the restrictors, then maybe your homemade units will be just the ticket. One way to find out .

[MindWebs]

we'll see...

i sure hope it all works out,

i'll try matching your jetting to start with and so how that responds.
i can go bigger or smaller as needed.

where are your needles set?

so the first carb setting test will be:

25.7 mm floats
147.5 Main jet size
Middle postion on Main Needles
45 pilot jet size
1.5 turns out on the pilot screws
55 degree angle on exhaust restrictors

We'll give'er a go with that setup and hope for the best.

if life where easy there wouldn't be anything to give it any value.

Later

[dbeardslee]

I've got my needles set on the middle notch. I've also got a 4/1 on it - 145 mains should be about right with a 4/2, but then again the exhaust is kind of an unknown quantity. I also see in your signature that it says 'oem air filter' (why am I thinking you've got pods?) and I'm assuming it isn't drilled. If that's correct then 147.5's are probably going to be too fat. Is your signature correct, or am I brain-locking on something?

[MindWebs]

Stock air box.. i never saw the point of drilling it..
there are only 2 cylinders hitting at a time so why open the box up to rain?

the filter is a cleanable foam outer skin, paper under that.
so i'd say it's a factory type. but not yammy.

no pods..

i think the 147.5 jet will be fine i belive these muffs are more open then a 4/1
spegetti pipe system. (i'm not saying that's a good thing)

sig is correct, i've been updating it as i go.

i'm getting impatient, i want to see what's going to work...
i'll be offline 3 days or so.. i'll try and get the bike done as soon as the parts arive.

Thank you!!

[dbeardslee]

That air box is going to have a bearing on your jetting. A motor is basically an air pump, and the idea behind modifications to exhaust and intake are to get it to 'breath' better. For that to happen you have to address both sides - exhaust and intake. If you look at the way the stock air box is setup, you're drawing all your air through the snorkel which has an opening that's maybe 1" X 3", which is going to be restrictive with the more open exhaust.

Here's the way the progression worked on Betsy. When I first got her she had a 4/1 and the rest was stock, including the jetting. If I read the plugs she looked rich (which may have been due to leaky stem seals), but in actual fact was too lean. I installed a free flow air filter in the stock box, and went to 142.5 mains and 45 pilots, and all was good. Then I drilled the air box, which again leaned it out a bit, and I went to 145 mains - again it looked good. By this time I'd just about had it with removing and installing the air box, and I also wanted to see if I could get a bit more air to the motor, so I installed the pods. Again she was showing a bit lean, and I went to the 147.5's. I also tried 47.5 pilots, but that was a bit much and I dropped them back to 45's. That's the setup I've had for about 2 years, and she's been real happy with it - and that's right out of the jetting recommendations.

If you want to keep the stock air box, I'd start with the smaller jets - maybe 142.5's and see what you've got. If you're dead set on trying the 147.5's you might take a look with a colortune with the bottom of the box on, and again with it removed and see what kind of difference it makes in your ability to adjust through the entire color range. That will at least give you an indication of which way you need to go on jetting or intake.

As far as drilling the box is concerned, I ran mine like that for about a year and didn't have any troubles with rain. The pods don't have a problem with the rain either, although if it's wet outside I have a problem with it . Some members will spray water directly into the carb intake bells while the motor's running to decarbon the heads, so I figure it isn't going to hurt anything even if they do get wet.

[dbeardslee]

Just saw this...

Here's a post dealing with a similar situation with HD mufflers -

Case in point

[petejw]

havent been on for a few days,
if you have the hd mufflers fitted,
then you wont need the restrictions, even with straight
thru pipes, i know theres been talk about restricting open pipes,
but its not necessary if the carbs are tuned correctly.
restricting the exhaust will effect the top end performance of
the bike.
if you check out u tube, theres a cpl of xs's on there with open
pipes without restrictions and appear to be well tuned.

I know im harping on it, but you need to put it back
to stock jettings and go from there.

how was the bike running prior to you playing with the carbs,
what was it doing for you to mess with them to start with
a bit of history of how it was running might help

[MindWebs]

oh... %^&*()$...

well, i found out part of the problems i've been having.

it seems that i still have dislexia,

I read the colortune instructions over very carefully... 2 months before i purchased the tool. and yep you guessed it....

i reversed the directions...

Sorry for all the troubles.

so here is what i have..

idle = whitish blue
mid = blue
high = yellow

this equals(correctly)

idle = lean
mid = ok-good
high = very rich

sooo.... yes i messed up...

now, on to the corrective action.

I'm ordering more jets

mains 135, 137.5, 140, 142.5

Pilots 47.5, 50

currently i'm still lean at idle to 2200
i'm running a 45 pilot

so now that we have the operator error out of the way we can move on to getting the bike running correctly.

Thanks for putting up with me!!

[dbeardslee]

One thing you have to keep in mind when you're colortuning is that the motor doesn't have a load on it. Consequently the color that's showing in the mid and high rpm ranges isn't real accurate. The way I colortune is to make sure I can adjust through the entire range of color at idle. I back the mixture screws out until I see yellow, then I go back in to blue, and in more to white/blue. Once I've got the jetting so I can go through the entire range, I back the mixtures out until it shows yellow, and then come back in until I see bunson blue, and go about 1/4 turn in from there. I've found that even one jet size can make a difference in being able to adjust through the entire range. I've also found that being able to adjust through the entire range tends to be a pretty good indication of main jetting being correct. Another thing that may have a bearing on this technique is that I've always been going from a lean condition headed to a richer setup (if that makes sense). Start with the smaller jets, and keep going bigger until you find the ones that let you get the full adjustment. Reason I say to do it this way is that if you start fat and work your way down, you may find that you can get through the entire color range but be rich in the mids and highs. What you want is that first jet size up that allows the adjustment.

After you've got the proper mains installed you'll need to run it around for a couple hundred miles, and then pull the plugs. You've got to get some miles on the plugs before you can really tell anything from them, so be patient. I'm looking for a nice medium brown in the center of the plugs, and I'm also looking for that black sooty ring around the outside. If I see a lot of soot around the outside, I go 1mm higher (upside down carb orientation) on the floats, and ride another couple hundred miles. I try to get them so I've got the medium brown centers, and a little bit of black around the outside.

As far as the slide needles are concerned, with the proper mains installed I've found that the center position on the needles tends to work the best. I've changed them around only to go back in and set them back on the middle, so now unless I've got a really compelling reason to diddle, I just leave them on the middle.

Of course the proof of the pudding is in the throttle twisting, so I also use that to gauge my work. When I installed the pods, there was a very noticeable difference in how it pulled in the 3-7k range with the 145's vs. the 147.5's, which was another indication that it likes that jetting. I have regular test routes that I run so as to keep everything as close to constant as I can get it. Part of my test is a very steep hill that I walk the bike up at the lowest rpm possible before it starts lugging. I also test on that hill to insure that I can apply throttle during that hard-pull-low-rpm and not get any stuttering - I'm looking for positive throttle response.

One resource I've found very helpful in getting carbs dialed in is the factory pro cv carb tuning tips. Lots of good info there.

And lastly, once you've got them dialed in, you still have to do some maintenance to keep it running right. The book says check and clean your plugs every 1k miles. Only takes a couple minutes to clean them with a wire brush, and nothing fires like nice clean plugs. Every time I colortune, I clean each plug as I get to it. If you've got plugs that have been fouled, Ivan had a really good trick to return them to serviceable condition - set them in something that will handle heat, and hit the business end with a propane torch until the electrode glows red. Lots of times you'll see a bunch of different color flames coming off of the plug, which is an indication of contaminants burning off. Using Ivan's procedure will keep a fouled plug from immediately refouling. I mention this because in order to get a good read on your plugs, you need to start with good clean plugs after each adjustment to your carbs.