Clutch clunk

[bikerphil]

I engine brake all the time in all gears except first. My brake pads do last a very long time, back tire, not so long.

[CatatonicBug]

I understand that with practice, I would be able to use engine braking without too much issue. I still don't understand the benefits for using it at all though...

[Crazcnuk]

I can't see how anyone can drive any standard transmission WITHOUT engine braking..

If you are downshifting, at all and letting the clutch out while you slow down you are using engine braking.

I can't see pushing (pulling) the clutch 1/4 mile from the corner, shifting down from 5th to 1st, and coasting to the corner w/o letting the clutch out?

Big trucks do it for exactly the same reasons as we do. To save wear and tear on the brakes, and because the engine is an efficient way to slow the vehicle down. They just have a much larger investment, and a lot more wear and tear.

I usually shift down, under normal driving conditions, around 3000rpm. it varies slightly depending on gear and speed, and road conditions, but jsut as you rev higher before shifting when you want to accellerate quicker, if you you want to slow faster you downshift faster, all the while supplementing with the brakes.

I sometimes end up at a stop in 2nd or 3rd gear, and have to kick down the last gear(s) before taking off, but that's more laziness than technique.

You can take off in 2nd, the bike will do it, but your multiplying your clutch wear significantly.

[petejw]

engine braking as well as using the brakes will stop
you much sooner than using the brakes alone,

try revving the bike out to 6000rpm in 1st gear and without pulling in
the clutch, just cut the throttle, the bike will want to throw
you over the handle bars, thatll show you how engine braking works. D

[CatatonicBug]

I can't see pushing (pulling) the clutch 1/4 mile from the corner, shifting down from 5th to 1st, and coasting to the corner w/o letting the clutch out?

That's how I was taught to drive...

[bikerphil]

Also when you engine brake, you keep the RPM's up in the power range so if you need to accelerate, the bike is in the right gear and you can take off quickly.

[Crazcnuk]

'That's how I was taught to drive... '

Did your family also have the annual 'changing of the brakes' holiday?

You don't have to blip the throttle to downshift. If your chirping your back tire, your downshifting at too slow an engine speed for the speed you are travelling.

Try shifting a little higher in the rpm range (sooner).

Anyone driving an automatic vehicle is using engine braking any time they take thier foot off the gas.

[petejw]

now i have to ask, when your taking a corner
have you got the clutch pulled in?

[CatatonicBug]

Did your family also have the annual 'changing of the brakes' holiday?

Anyone driving an automatic vehicle is using engine braking any time they take thier foot off the gas.

Brake life has never been an issue. Lifetime brake pads/shoes always seem to last the life of the vehicle.

I currently own an automatic (SWMBO can't drive a manual), and when slowing in that car, the rpm's never increase until I hit the gas. It does NOT downshift by itself while braking, increasing the rpm's. Yes, some engine braking is there with ANY engine, as soon as you let off the gas, but an automatic does not use a downshift to include the engine in the stopping process.

now i have to ask, when your taking a corner
have you got the clutch pulled in?

No, because you should always be under power when taking a corner, to increase traction.

[Crazcnuk]

"Lifetime brake pads/shoes always seem to last the life of the vehicle"

You don't drive very much. Lifetime of a vehicle is 250,000 - 500,000kms, I dont know any where the brakes last that long.

I go through a set of rear pads every couple of years, on the XS. Fronts a bit slower. Got about 5yrs out of the pads/shoes on the Shadow, and had it for 14yrs.

On my cars I get really good mileage out of my brakes but still have to replace them every 100,000-130,000 kms or so.


The automatics do shift down, your just too impatient and get on the brakes before it does. However, I wasn't referring to downshifts, just that automatics lways use the engine to slow you, even though you don't necessarily need to know it.

A standard will do the same thing until it stalls. Which is why you have to downshift to keep the engine from stalling.

"now i have to ask, when your taking a corner have you got the clutch pulled in?

Depends. If I am turning into a parking spot, and have enough momentum, yes. If I am on the highway taking a corner, I am accelerating to smooth out the corner.

I have even been known to shift in the odd corner.

[b.walker5]

I tried engine braking today a couple of times when exiting the freeway, and ended up chirping the rear wheel in 3rd gear! Definitely NOT something I want to see happen on a regular basis! The loss of traction can be catastrophic, and I try hard to avoid that. The quick reversal of force on the drivetrain can't be healthy, since it's suddenly directing immense force in the opposite direction from usual.

Your letting your clutch out too fast. Let it out a little slower and let the drivetrain catch up with the engine. Dont worry, the clutch can handle a little slip, it's not the same as slip from engine load and doesnt generate the same heat. Done properly you shouldnt have any problems with rear wheel lockup.

[DGXSER]

Actually, an automatic transmission IS downshifting as you slow your speed. IT just is not as apparent as with a manual when it is letting the engine do the work because it is designed to keep rpms in a certain range, just like upshifting. Heck, most automatic trans vehicles do not even have a tach. If it did not downshift, then it would have to shift before giving power when you apply gas after slowing down.

The problem I would forsee with only downshifting to 1st when coming to a stop, is if the light turns green when your doing 25 MPH. Now with an XS11 and the stock FD, if your still in 5th it will pull you up to speed anyway, but try that on a 250 or even a 450 cc bike. You'll be coasting off the side of the road to restart the bike. If your in 1st gear already, then you need to upshift or you WILL get tire skid, or see your tach climb fast or both.

As stated, engine braking is a definite benefit if not a requirement for emergency braking, especially on these big heavy bikes. Fact is, we as humans do what we have always done in an emergency, just faster. So if you practice not engine braking, in an emergency you will not do it, and it will take you longer to stop and could cost you your life.

[Elevener]

That's how I was taught to drive...

Then I also believe you were taught wrong. Been riding on the street since 15, standard cars and trucks since 16. Downshifting is part of driving.

[WMarshy]

I understand that with practice, I would be able to use engine braking without too much issue. I still don't understand the benefits for using it at all though...

The benefit is shorter stopping distance and being in the opimum gear to accelerate when needed. Your method is OK, by no means let anyone tell you, you should be riding a different way. Its like the oil topic, some swear by synthetic and some swear at it. Once you get the hang of engine breaking the benefits will become obvious.

I guess I should have gave a better warning in my last post, tire chirp/hop will happen if the rpm is mismatched too much. This is the reason for the throttle blip, increase the engine rpm before disengaging the clutch, get good enough at it and its smooth as butter. My advice to you is give it a few more tries, pick on a straight road with no traffic, not an exit ramp for learning!

Get going about 40 MPH or more in 4th gear let off the throttle and let the bike slow to around 2000-2500 rpm, pull in the clutch, shift into 3rd, and disengage the clutch. You shouldnt have a problem with chirping the rear tire at this RPM and wont have to blip the gas to try and match the rpm b/c they will be close enough together. Continue to let 3rd get down to about the same rpm and repeat the process. Keep practicing that and take note of engine rpm, soon you will be able to match rpm's by ear and then you will be ready to start engine breaking at a higher rpm that requires matching the rpm by bliping the throttle...

[CatatonicBug]

Well, after talking to 3 of my co-workers (2 of them also ride), NONE of them use engine braking on either a car or a bike. One mentioned that he actually bent a valve on a hardley by shifting incorrectly, and basically doing an engine brake unintentionally (though I can't see how engine braking could cause that to happen). The argument against it is that considerable force is being applied to the drivetrain in REVERSE of the direction it is designed to go, and puts stress on places that are not designed to handle it. Of course, that is just theory, and I have no evidence that considerable damage is happening.

Now, I DO see that the use of engine braking does add to the negative accelleration of the vehicle, and in an emergency, it may shorten the stopping distance considerably. However, NOT engine braking causes zero stress on the drivetrain, and brake pads are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than drivetrain components. So, perhaps the idea of using it on a regular basis is not the best idea, but being familiar with the practice for emergency situations may be a good idea??