Clutch clunk

[b.walker5]

Something tells me you are thinking about this differently than I am.

Nope, just never use first for anything other than taking off. These beasts are quite happy down to 10km/h (not 10mph) in second gear, in fact they'll easily take off in second so I just dont use it once moving.

..but the engine is not a brake, and should not be used to stop...

Agreed, it shouldnt be used to stop, but it absolutely should be used as a brake. Engine braking, if used properly, accounts for about a third of your overall braking effect. Thats why trucks have exhaust brakes.

May be a bit un-pc but thats the way i do it.

[CatatonicBug]

Nope, just never use first for anything other than taking off. These beasts are quite happy down to 10km/h (not 10mph) in second gear, in fact they'll easily take off in second so I just dont use it once moving.

When you say, "taking off", does that mean every time you come to a full stop, or only the very first time you start moving when you start your bike? Yes, these bikes have decent torque in 2nd, but their not nearly as quick as they are in 1st. Do you mean to say that you never use 1st gear to take off from a stop light? As far as I'm concerned, every time you come to a complete stop, you should be in 1st gear.

Thats why trucks have exhaust brakes.

But there are signs on lots of freeways saying "No Engine Braking" because the extra noise from trucks caused by the increased rpm's is just annoying. The same happens on a bike, but it's just annoying to the rider...

[b.walker5]

I dont use second to take off, always first, from where ever i'm stopped, I'm just never in first when I stop.

Yeah, we have the "no engine brakes" signs too, but only in residential areas, and If they wern't an important part of the braking system truck manufacturers wouldnt bother spending the extra money fitting them.

I taught my kids to always use the engine braking first, then the gearbox, coupled with the engine, and then the brakes. You can never guarantee that when you step on the brake pedal that they're going to be there, and you should never rely on them, 'cause one day they might not be.

[TexinMaine]

Thats why trucks have exhaust brakes.

Here in the states they call it a Jake brake. And they do make some noise but the truckers like it because it saves on the braking system. I was taking a trip from Maine to Texas on a Greyhound bus and talked to one driver who used the engine to help slow down as well, he also claimed it was to save wear on the brakes. I have not been riding long and am still learning but that seems like someting I should get in the habit of doing it.

Tex

[petejw]

the higher compression in deisel engines also
make engine braking more efficient on trucks.

CB,
are you revving the engine while your changing down gears?

[CatatonicBug]

CB,
are you revving the engine while your changing down gears?

Never. Just as with upshifting, the RPMs should be as low as possible when shifting. As I coast to a stop (with brakes applied), I only apply full clutch, and gradually increase the brakes, bumping the shift lever to downshift to the appropriate gear for the speed I am currently going. That way, if I need to accellerate for any reason, I am always ready with the proper gear engaged.

[petejw]

ok,
thats not a good thing,
can cause a compression lock and cause
the rear wheel to lock up.
have you been riding long?

[Crazcnuk]

'Jake' or Jacob compression brakes, as designed by Jacob, change when the valves open and close to provide engine braking because diesels DON'T provide much brake force on thier own.

[CatatonicBug]

ok,
thats not a good thing,
can cause a compression lock and cause
the rear wheel to lock up.
have you been riding long?

Been riding 2 years. Not sure what you mean about compression lock. The engine is at idle (1100rpm) with no load on it when downshifting. That is the healthiest point to shift the engine. That is why you let off the throttle when you upshift. The clutch is pulled, and is only released when accelleration is needed (generally after a complete stop).

[b.walker5]

Dunno what theyre teaching you at those MSF Courses but I don't much like it. You really shouldnt be coasting on the clutch with only the brakes to slow you down. I only use the clutch to change down, let the engine do the braking as much as possible and then the clutch again to prevent stall at the point of stopping.

I've been riding for 38 years now and have always done it that way. If there's now some new fangled, politically correct, way of doing it, I'm not buying it.

[DGXSER]

The MSF course that I took teaches to always down shift as you slow and to engine brake. They also teach that whenever you come to a stop you should ALWAYS be in first gear. This is so you can easily move out of the way if someone behind you is not so attentive to your stopping. In fact, when I took my test, I performed the swerve test flawlessly except I never shifted up to 2nd, just wound first out a little more. This meant I did not have to downshift back to first, so they made me repeat it so I could show them I downshifted before coming to a complete stop.

And I can tell you form experience that the XS1100 WILL stop the rear wheel when engine braking if you drop two gears instead of one. And yes, I pulled the clutch in dang quick.

When engine braking, or whenever down shifting, you always want to rev the engine up so when you let the clutch out, the engine speed closely matches the tranny speed. Same reason you let the engine speed drop when up shifting. This is not a bike thing, this is a manual transmission thing, unless you just really enjoy replacing clutch frictions.

[WMarshy]

You must have really long exit ramps there. When I have to go from 80mph to a complete stop in 300-400 feet, there isn't time to mess with engine braking. Even around town though, from 30mph to a stop at an intersection, I always just grab the clutch and slow with the brake, slowly dropping to 1st gear just before coming to a complete stop.

That makes no sense to me... The less room I have the more engine breaking I do! Trying to slow these steeds without engine breaking, just "free wheeling" can be a little scary IMO! I use every gear including first when doing this, I also blip the throttle to match the RPM's. I also think you can get the most breaking power out of the engine around 5000 RPM, and if done right will make a quick nice and smooth stop. In an emergency, I've made the back tire chirp a little when engine breakin (should had a higher rpm). Obviously, if Im doing relaxed riding and engine breaking I dont do it at that high of an RPM. I dont ALWAYS use first to engine break at low speeds but, I am always still moving when I put it in first before I come to a stop...

I bet some of the other more agressive riders out there use a similar method of engine breaking and can relate to the above...

I learned my leason about free wheeling with the clutch in when I blew the tranny in a tractor...you think our transmission make lot'a noise you aint heard nothin.

[CatatonicBug]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong on this. But with every manual transmission vehicle that I or my family have ever owned, I have never used (or seen used) engine braking for anything other than slowing by letting off the throttle (without downshifting). The only thing that I have ever seen engine braking used in is a deisel truck (semi). The extra weight of a semi causes increased heat in the brakes, and the deisel engine's compression makes it an efficient way to slow the truck on a downgrade. The MSF course I took never mentioned a single thing about engine braking. Only that if you want to slow down, you grab the clutch, release the throttle, and gradually downshift while braking - making sure to be in 1st before coming to a complete stop.

I can kinda see how engine braking might help conserve brake pads, but other than that, I can't see ANY benefit. I also can't comprehend how using only the brakes to stop can be harmful to the engine or tranny. The clutch completely disengages the engine from the tranny. The engine drops to idle, and is under zero load. The tranny then spins freely and slows as the speed of the wheels decreases. No load is applied to the drivetrain at all.

I can, however, see how the use of engine braking can be hamful if used improperly. I tried engine braking today a couple of times when exiting the freeway, and ended up chirping the rear wheel in 3rd gear! Definitely NOT something I want to see happen on a regular basis! The loss of traction can be catastrophic, and I try hard to avoid that. The quick reversal of force on the drivetrain can't be healthy, since it's suddenly directing immense force in the opposite direction from usual. It's like push-starting an engine that is already running, several times for every time you slow down (once for each downshifted gear). Of course, a good portion of this force could be mitigated by increasing RPMs before letting the clutch out with each downshift.

I'm not trying to be argumentative with this, I just don't understand the benefits of engine braking for anything but a semi, or the dangers of "coasting" and using only the brakes to stop.

[Rasputin]

C-bug if you are used to doing it the way you have been you will find it a bit awkward at first. Once you get used to using the engine and transmission for slowing down you will never look back. I come from 40 - 50 mph to a stop sign and only use my brakes the last hundred or so feet. The use of the trans and engine as brakes are widely used even without a "Jake" or engine brake. Heck even an automatic transmission car works that way, shifts down and the revs come up. Then the combination of engine and trans etc slows it down until it shifts down again. You don't throw your automatic car in neutral and use the brakes to slow you down, so why do it with a bike? Just my 2 cents

[petejw]

hey bug,
to prevent the rear wheel from locking up,
you need to rev the engine prior to shifting down
in gear.
If you want to practice it you dont need to do
it at high revs, find a quiet street and practise changing down gears
from around 3500-4000rpm, pull the clutch in, (you dont need to pull the lever to the bars just bring it in enuff to disengage the gears, blip the throttle to raise the revs, the rpms will rise then will start to drop as the rpms drop you then downshift and let out the clutch. i hope that makes sense.


no ones having a go at you and i havent taken it that youve been arguementative, we're just trying to understand
how you ride and shift the gears and hopefully offer some good adive.