Crankcase problem...

[trbig]

The pin came out of the shift pawl(bet the star washer has an ear broken off too).

Then the bike wouldn't shift when it got to that gear. He's never said anything about a problem shifting.

and better do some seriousreading here in the tech tips for fixing first/second gear issue

Said he's already done the fix.

Tod

[psycoreefer]

Said he's already done the fix.

Tod

Where? I read the thread and I didn't see it, if he'd already done the fix he would have already had the pan off and see the parts before now...

[trbig]

The bike has had the 2nd gear fix done on it so they may have been dropped down there then.

His 2nd posting. And though it seems someone would have noticed, if someone else did it (He never said HE did the fix) then they may have dropped it on reassembly of things. May have done several things at once.. or done a valve adjustment after the gear fix. All guesswork, but he needs to get them checked out. If the cam pressure bends a cam cap from one nut being gone, these are machined with the head.

Tod

[psycoreefer]

I stand corrected, and I agree that the valve cover should come off for inspection!

[the108penguins]

ok history of the bike s I know it goes something like this. 2 owners before me the 2nd gear fix is done.
Then he sells the bike to my friend who rides it hard until the can chain tensioner breaks and valves bend He buys another head and installs it (this is where I suspect the two nuts and washer came from) but he doesn't get the timing right and bends the valves again
then he sells it to me and I install yet another head and close it up. so I know all the cams and journals are there and everything is fine in my head now it's running and ridable. the shifting is a little rough but it doesn't get stuck anywhere. I suspect that the rough shifting is due to the water in the oil and clutch.

hope this helps you help me

[Ivan]

It takes a surprisingly small amount of water to make oil turn milky. I would say maybe about 2-3 tablespoons per gallon.

If it were my scoot, I would change the oil, then ride it until it got hot enough to evaporate the remaining water from the oil. Ideally, you'd want the oil temp to hit 212F, but AI am not sure it would ever get that high on one of these bikes. This would actually boil the water out. But even at 160 or 180, the water will come out fairly quickly.

It does sound like you have other issues to attend to first though.

[trbig]

so I know all the cams and journals are there and everything is fine in my head

It's obviously your bike and your decision, but if I found 2 nuts with possibly the washers to them, and knowing these things back off sometimes under vibration, it could save some time, money, and headaches (Along with probably yet ANOTHER head) to pop the top and take a peek-a-boo.

Like I said though, strictly your call. I'm not trying to knock your mechanical abilities for tightening a nut ot bolt.. simply saying it's a mechanical thing and sometimes s*%t happens.

Tod

[psycoreefer]

I'd still pull the cover just to make double sure, unless your friend can confirm that he did accidentally drop two nuts and washers down the tunnel. Should be easy to ask him right?

I'm still guessing that the pin is for the cam chain master link.

[trbig]

I'm still guessing that the pin is for the cam chain master link.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're meaning, if you're missing a single pin from a chain, master link or other, the chain comes apart. Each link is riding/pivoting on that pin.


Tod

[psycoreefer]

of course if it came out the chain would fall apart, I'm guessing either the friend, or another PO replaced the chain and when they were putting the pin in they dropped it, then used the all to often recommended "extra" pin/link that you should order along with the cam chain.

[motoman]

Rode hard by PO pretty much verifies ALL I stated trbig. Also pretty much verifies what all I stated, one issue creates another. Not just guessing, know from personnel experience why those particular pieces are lying in the pan, no matter who claims to have fixed the gear issue. Several missed second gear shifts WILL result with these pieces lying in the pan. Sometimes it takes a bit to have one of the pins drop out, but it WILL happen. A couple times pushing a factory full dresser a mile home will convince you to fix the dern thing insted of just putting in a new pin and star washer each time it happens. Rode mine two years skipping second knowing I was gonna have to sooner or later do the dremal fix. Making a bad shift thinking I passed over the pin from second to third and having it tat-tat-tat then hitting shifter up to engage is to late as result of that already happened, especially when I found the lowere shaft bolt had already been out for who knows how long before I put this 81Standard motor in my bike. Even though it was a way low mileage motor(less than 20K), likely was the reason it was taken out of service in the first place. So with that said, again from experience would pull the shift cover and check to see that star washer tabs are not bent over and check to also from SAME side that shifter fork shaft does NOT move laterally. If it DOES move laterally more than a few thousands, guarentee thats where the circlip found came from. Plus it coming off allows the idle gear to come off the shift fork shaft that runs the oil pump came off too. It can't go anywhere and still will engage with clutch basket gear and pump as it is somewhat trapped in there. Again, it that is the case he's gonna have to remove the clutch basket assembly to put the gear, teeny-tiny thrust washer and cir-clip back on. Also like I stated, if the large bolt and thrust washer that tightens against the inner bearing race holding lower tranny shaft in place has come loose or has fallen out, that also has to be addressed. If it's been out for any lengh of time likely the gear on the clutch housing has rounded it off enough that it isn't re-uauable. If that's the case he'll need another one from another hopefully donar scrapped motor/tranny as the bolt washer is no longer avaivable form Yamaha. Being a grade #8 equivelent and if knowing the size/thread taper and lenght very well could get from a bolt supplier source. Don't know for sure as I just robbed the one out of my original motor. If it has just backed out a ways or is still in place would still remove , spray BrakeKleen on both the bolt and internal threads, put a dob of BLUE loc-tite on it and torque to spec. listed. Will save another head-ache in the future.

[the108penguins]

np it's good advice. so I popped the cam cover and all nuts are accounted for. I did go ahead and ask my friend and it turns out that he remembers dropping a couple nuts while putting th other head on. I also pulled the clutch cover just to be sure and can't see anything awry from there or from under with the oil pan off. what'd ya say guys... should I close it back up?

oh yea I managed to get most of the oil/water coating off of the gears with a little seafoam and a rag plus my air compressor.

[trbig]

Rode hard by PO pretty much verifies ALL I stated trbig. Also pretty much verifies what all I stated, one issue creates another. Not just guessing, know from personnel experience why those particular pieces are lying in the pan

LOL.. OK. You're the man. Nobody else has any experience with these things.

I also pulled the clutch cover just to be sure and can't see anything awry from there or from under with the oil pan off. what'd ya say guys... should I close it back up?

Did you check out the idler gear behind the clutch basket? You can't actually see it.. you'll have to feel for it IF you can get your fingers back in there.

Tod

[motoman]

As trbig stated, no gaskets are neede for the pan, clutch cover, or shifter cover(I still have new OEM gaskets for pan and clutch cover in packages), as they are machined surfaces. After clean and DRY a THIN film of high-temp gray silicone is all that's needed. Three years and 20,000mi. later and not so much as a dusty film has appeared on either my shift cover,pan, or clutch cover. JAT.

[motoman]

Not even(but close at times) Trbig. He obviously was wanting to be sure so as to not trash his motor from something possibly being overlooked. Just was covering ALL those scenarios as to what CAN and somtimes take place. I think he very well understood what to check and why once explained, unless he just enjoys major repairs rather than riding. Other than throwing an occassional curve at you for grins, I actually DO give accurate info and things to check out ONLY if I know and it may save someone from having a bad or frustrating XS11 experience from not knowing like alot of us have had to do from trial and error. I actually learn alot from others threads for future reference without any input. With saying that, you know as well as I do "murphy" can jump out of that bottle any time, and if that can be averted I have no problem attempting to detour that little gremlin when I can.