Crankcase problem...

[the108penguins]

ok so assuming that what motoman said is true what do I have to do now? you may have identified the problem but have not offered a solution yet.

I felt behind the clutch basket for a gear that moves and there is one that slides back and forth but not enough to come off of the teeth of the one it meshes to. from looking at the manual I believe that it is the oil pump/idle gear.

do I have to drop the whole tranny or is this a fix that I can do with just the side covers off?

[motoman]

Dats the one penguin. Since you said it moves back and forth circlip in pan is STILL suspect! Remove the left side shift cover and you will find that end of shaft also has a circlip which rides up against case keeping shaft from going farther in. Hold the shift pawl assembly and move it back and forth. If it and the shaft move in and out at all, then the clip and tiny washer you found in pan came off the clutch side(that retains the gear and keeps shaft staionary and the circlip keeps it stationary on the shifter side). Follow all that you can that I stated originally, not saying all those things took place but one incident is followed by another if not immediatly fixed. And normally you have no way of knowing till more things not functioning correctly follow, and they WILL eventually. Pull that shift cover next and report back what you visually find(missing pin,bent ear on little star washer that keeps pins in there respective location x4). I'll leave it at that as there's more to come before even re-installing shift cover.

[trbig]

Once again...

If he has no trouble shifting, then the pins on the shift cam are still intact. Motoman, you seem to have blown right by that and still trying to tell everyone his problem and that this is what caused this and that and blah blah. If you can grab the rod from the shifter side that you are describing, and pull it towards that side of the motor, then it has absolutley nothing to do with the circlips you mentioned, it has to do with the dowel pin that I mentioned. That rod is supposed to have a small dowel pin in it that fits in a notch in the case to prevent it from moving that way and to keep the rod from spinning and letting the notch on the rod on the inside of the case get into that gear there. All this was explained in the beginning, Motoman, if you could have actually read instead of hammering away on your keyboard, convinced you know more than everyone about these things. If you can slide the idler gear back and forth at all.. since the circlips sandwich it.. it doesn't seem like the circlip in the pan is just suspect now, does it? The back circlip goes against that dowel pin and case, so it can't move that way.. guess which clip has to come off for the gear to move? I'll give you a minute, but while you think, I'd call the clip in the pan guilty.. not just a suspect.

So now that you've had him open up his shifter cover already for no sound reason, he can go ahead and pull the 2 circlips and shift lever on that end of the rod and do as I mentioned in my first posting. He'll need to pull his clutch basket to get to that idler gear, BUT he'll also need to replace the dowel pin in that rod if it is indeed broken. The problem is that this is through your shift forks in the transmission. If you had another rod to slide through from the other side as you removed that one, it would help, but not everyone has the luxury of spare motors/parts around. At least the oil pan is off now, so if you have to remove the rod, it shouldn't be too much trouble to get it back through the shift forks.

Now, with the rod out, you'll need to replace that, or drill out what's left of the old pin and replace it. The pin is much softer than the rod and is easy to do. Most ACE hardware stores will have a pin to replace that. Reassembly is just reverse order. Slide that new pin into the notch in the case with the rod through the shift forks. Each side of that rod protruding through the case has 2 circlips. One on each side of the idler gear and one on each side of the shift lever.

Another thing Motoman apparently has no knowledge about but doesn't mind acting like he does, is the gear on the back of the clutch basket. It is extremely tough and will gladly chew up the bolt that holds your gear shaft against the case if it backs out, or that small idler gear if it gets sideways, and you'll never see a mark on the basket gear. Switching to a grade 8 bolt later like he said, then probably, but not from what's in there.

Motoman, your interest to share knowledge is admirable, but when you start tramping all over other people's suggestions with absolute surety that you know more without considering that a person suggesting things may have many many more motors under their belt with a ton more time than you elbow deep in the inards of these motors who may have tore up just about everything there is to tear up on one, it's a bit irritating. Your overbearing attitude drowning out reasoned suggestions with your unreasoned wrong ones, all the while ignoring reasons why your suggestions don't make sense, shows a lack of maturity.

Luckily, you didn't lead this member too far off course, as he would have had to remove the shifter cover to fix the shift shaft, but it wasn't needed to find the problem you wrongly insisted he had. You were correct about the idler gear and circlip, but that had already been mentioned and a simple agreement would have sufficed. Learn to consider that others may be correct, use an ounce of deductive reasoning, or at least actually read when others are doing so, and you may actually do more good than harm.


Tod

[DGXSER]

Penguin,

I have seen first hand on more than one occasion, where that oil pump idle gear and its surrounding (both sides) cir-clips come off. I have my own little theory on it, which is that it is caused by idiots trying to hold the gears in place by standing on the shift lever, but that is a debatable issue. It just coincides that every engine I have seen with the issue also had messed up shift forks from someone doing just that.

That pin could be just fine and not damaged, but one or more circlips come off and then that rod can slide around, same with the gear. I have seen it twice so far. If it were me at this point, next step would depend on if you have the shift cover off already. If it is off, pull off the shift pawl from the shifter, then pull the circlip from the shift fork shaft shift pawl and remove it, and check to see the back one is still in place which would keep the shift shaft from sliding around.

If those clips are in place or you have not pulled the shift cover yet, then the circlip on the other end that holds the oil pump idle gear on the shaft is probably what you found in the pan. For that one, you need to pull the clutch basket off. Then you can see the gear in question.

I have seen first hand on one occasion the oil pump idle gear laying in the bottom of the clutch cover with its teeth beveled about off. It can move enough to get eat up.

If you already have the oil pan off to with bothe side covers, and with all the stuff pulled above to get to the bottom (so to speak) of this issue, I'd also look close at the shift forks to see no one has ground them down with the old, stand on the shifter to hold the gear in instead of doing the repair trick.

JMO.

And BTW, if you have ridden the bike and it shifts ok, then do not see how you could have a shift drum or pin issue. But, if you have that cover off already, I'd look at the pins while your there.

[the108penguins]

alright i'm a little confused with all the different pieces but I'm managing to keep up. I pulled the clutch basket and the cir clip had com off of the end of the shaft where it held on the oil pump/idle gear. only 2 teeth on the gear have any marks on them and even thy are small marks. but the gear is a bit warped... it still meshes with the other gears fine and spins smoothly do you think it's still usable? I haven't yet pulled the shifter cover but i'm about to (got too dark last night had to wait till this morning) once I get it off I'll let y'all know what I find.

[trbig]

You may not need to pull that cover yet. Follow that shaft towards the case on the clutch side. You'll see a notch or square cutout recessed into the case. Is there still a dowel pin in that shaft with that pin in that recessed area? Here's a pic of that end of the shaft.




If you push that rod towards the left side of the bike and the pin is gone, you could cause the shift lever assy (labeled #2) attached to the other end of that shaft to come off, but the end cap on the shift cam (#1) SHOULD prevent that as long as you don't force things.





IF that dowel pin is still in the shaft, and IF the bike is in fact shifting fine through all gears, then there should be no reason to pull the shifter cover unless you just want to check things out.

I wouldn't re-use that idler gear if I was you. Too much riding on that little thing to use a warped one, the least of them is having to tear back into it. I'm sure a member would have one available. You could contact Andreasweiss (SP?) on here if nobody chimes in, or if you can wait until Monday, I can probably dig one up for you.

When you go to install those circlips back on, if you look very closely, one side of it will have a bit of a rounded edge, and the other will be a nice sharp/squared end. Make sure you put this squared side away from the gear towards the outside. (Also away from it on the other side of the gear) This will help prevent it from being pushed off again.

I don't know if you've done it before, but when reinstalling your clutch basket, make sure the front edge of your clutch basket sits flush with this splined shoulder edge on the clutch shaft.





If your clutch has an extra steel plate in it, the basket will sit that thickness out from it. This can be a PITA. Sometimes it just slides right on, and sometimes, it takes some cussing. lol. Also, be gentle and tighten the star plate bolts/springs evenly and carefully. It's easy to get it cocked sideways a bit and break off one of those ears.

Another thing you might check while you're there though... That big washer that goes between the clutch basket and the case... put it on the shaft against that bearing. If you can see a bit of a gap around the edges of the washer and still see some bearings, you have the right washer there. There's another similar washer underneath all your discs inside the basket, but it is a bit bigger diameter and will totally cover up that bearing and not allow oil to get into it sufficiently. If someone has been in there before, these can get swapped sometimes.

Correct....





INcorrect... notice the bluing on the center of the washer from getting hot.




Good luck.


Tod

[DGXSER]

I agree on changing the gear. From what you said it is either warped or the center is out of round.

I would look for that pin in there, and also, grab that shaft and pull it toward you. If it will move toward you, then you need to open the other side up. If it does not move, in my opinion you have no need to pull the shift cover. Unless you found multiple cir-clips in the pan.

BTW, if you pull the shift cover, I have never had any luck using the gasket on that cover, leaks every time. I use RTV gasket on mine and have eliminated leaks from that cover.

[Ivan]

Its a little known fact that Tod actually has the exploded parts view of an XJ1100 engine tatooed on the INSIDE of his eyelids. Yeah. He's that good.

I do want to reenforce the tidbit about the clutch star plate. Take it easy and slow. It will snap with out warning. If you look at the star, you will notice the round part under the star is machined and fits snugly into the bore machined into the basket. As with any slip fit machined part, if it gets cocked a bit it will jam up. That's when the painful snap happens. Just be mindful of this and you will be ok.

Good luck to you.

[randy]

Oh...crap

Another thing you might check while you're there though... That big washer that goes between the clutch basket and the case... put it on the shaft against that bearing. If you can see a bit of a gap around the edges of the washer and still see some bearings, you have the right washer there. There's another similar washer underneath all your discs inside the basket, but it is a bit bigger diameter and will totally cover up that bearing and not allow oil to get into it sufficiently. If someone has been in there before, these can get swapped sometimes.

I had a moment of doubt about those washers myself. Now i can't recall which one i put where....&%#M you, Tod for bringing THAT up!

BUT, isn't the back side of that bearing open? Why wouldn't it get splash from the back side?

[the108penguins]

i've taken th left side cover off and lo and behold the pin is from a sprocket thingy that allows you to shift. Ididn't notice any hift problems bcause this is the pin for 5th gear and it just never got there but the pin for fourth gear is ready to come out and neither of th 4th or 5th pins will go back in all the way(I might not b making the right faces) plus the star washer holding them in is finished so I'll need a new one of those.

[trbig]

Apparently that bearing does get SOME oil, or it wouldn't last any time at all. But, as you can see from that washer, it isn't enough.

i've taken th left side cover off and lo and behold the pin is from a sprocket thingy that allows you to shift. Ididn't notice any hift problems bcause this is the pin for 5th gear and it just never got there

So there you go.. there WERE shifting problems, which would have been a correct diagnosis by Motoman.

Tod

[the108penguins]

trbig thanks for the heads up about the washers behind the clutch basket I would have never noticed until my bearings burnt out. and thanks for the pics they helped clear things up a ton. the pin is from behind the star washer labeled #1 in one of your pics. and this bike isn't going anywhere for a bit so if you can find an idle gear for this thing that would b awesome.

[the108penguins]

motoman you were right on target as to where the pieces came from. where do I go from here?

[motoman]

May sound like an overkill,but do you know whether the first/second gear fix has been done on this bike or not? If not, I would definitely remove the lower shaft assembly at this point and do the dremal fix. If it's on the centerstand at this point and I am(was) hoping you had not yet put clutch assembly back on as I had a sneaky feeling this was gonna be next and didn't want to feed too much at once to confuse you. Again if on the centerstand, get some help and get the bike up higher and put one short 4x4 LENGTHWAYS under each center stand leg. This will give you some extra room to work underneath. Gravity is your friend,(you will see why when putting back together) so do NOT flip bike upside down. Ken Talbots pics and instructions are good to follow. They can be abit confusing if you've never done this before, as would anyone showing pics and steps would be. If you would feel more comfortable calling me for any step-by-step thing that may be confusing, your most welcome to! The only dumb question is the one not asked.........970-640-7221 ANYTIME! You get stuck or hesitant don't hesitate to call. Later, Brant.

[motoman]

Tod, for the most part, you have always taken my "bait" to argue as I have led you to single me out to take "stabs" at as I figured out quickly you like to argue just "because", pretty much ALL in good fun on my part. I don't doubt your ability mechanically for the most part. If you choose to debate seriously(and this is no place for it), I must warn you that you are totally out of your league doing it with me! All I ask is you keep it civil and not make direct attacks as you have done. Some things I've stated here are in fun and NONE have been a direct attack at you or anyone else here. I do on occassion try to detour disaster by being forward to get ones attention, and only with issues that I KNOW the correct results. Thanks, Brant.