Onward to new adventures in the gear box

[trbig]

In opposition to TC, I am a fan of the washer swap. As he stated, the Dremmeled gears will usually work fine without moving the washer for a while. But moving it adds much better gear engagement. I have done the fix and tore up first gear again where you can't swap the washer (Tried that once also) and have never tore up 2nd again. As deep as the washer swap lets 2nd/5th engage, I don't think it would be possible for it to skip again. By just grinding it, without swapping the washer, if it rounds off again, it will skip again.

I doubt there's very many that have done the fix and ended up back in there to fix it again. When you grind the gears, you're going through the hard case hardened surface to softer metal. That nice pretty bevel you cut... gets mashed down and disfigured fairly quickly. It may pull your gears together for a short time, but after that, you're back to just relying on the material engagement depth to keep them together. This is also probably the reason you don't see many problems that Randy was worrying about with unmatched surfaces of the gears from Dremmel grinding. They'll mash down to where they all hit fairly quickly. I still use a caliper to get everything as close as I can though.

Those worried about the gear rubbing on the C-clip for some reason.. it's the same, if not harder steel than the washer, and after having them apart again after the fix on several occasions, I've never seen any noticeable wear on the clip.

As to the innitial statement in this thread, it almost sounds like there's a gear alignment problem. Either a bent shift fork, as stated, (Remember these forks are numbered 1-3 with #1 near the shifter) or also make sure the bolt under your clutch basket that holds this shaft against the case hasn't backed out.

Good luck.

Tod

[3Phase]

... more than once I wondered how you control and equalize the amount of material you're removing from all the dogs / slots?

<fx: small voice>
I've never actually done the Dremel fix, Randy....
</fx>

My gears were still good when I split the case to fix the starter clutch. I machined the 2nd gear hub and did the washer swap to prevent any problems. So far it's one of the fixes that actually worked!

I'd like to see a set of gears that's been ridden hard for a while after they've had the Dremel fix done and cut through the hardened face to the hidden, inner cheese that lurks just below the surface.


Regards,

Scott

[motoman]

trbig, you ride'em harder than most, so see your point. I've done the fix on mine some three years ago, run it at the strip,etc., no issue. Must have been a while for you as there is NO bolt that holds the fork shaft on clutch side, tis a circlip and shaft has a roll pin thru it that indexes in case so as not to turn/spin......light come on yet? Gears ARE case hardened so your not grinding down to cheese(3Phase XS tech-term). Dern dude, we need to have a beer(or two) together so I can get you squared away....lol. Go back and read or re-read my thread on this and why I didn't swap sides with the washer. Other than that your catching on....

[CatatonicBug]

there is NO bolt that holds the fork shaft on clutch side......

I think he was referring to the bolt in the end of the secondary shaft (the shaft that holds all the gears that get dremmel'd). Not the shift fork shaft.

Gears ARE case hardened so your not grinding down to cheese

The gears are CASE hardened. That means that only the outer skin of the gear is hard. When you dremmel the outer skin away, all you are left with is the soft metal inside (cheese). Kinda like cutting away the hard wax shell on a gouda cheese wheel. The only way to fix that would be to re-case-harden the dremmel'd gears. I don't think anyone's ever tried that, and I'm not even sure if it's possible...

[motoman]

Stand corrected Bug, as I have my original bolt washer I kept in tool box for show what hapens to it when it comes out. Dern those teeth on the clutch assembly gotta be some hardness. Head of bolt and initial threads are just a point and doesn't even resemble somthing that belongs in there let alone resembling a bolt. Mine must of had a "walking" shaft for years on the replacement motor with second not holding(likely why it was removed from another 81 Venturer with only 20K on it). Imagine you could re-harden if you had a can of the hardening powder. Done that sort of thing years ago. All you need is a torch and the powder. It's a two-fold process and easy to do. Trbig, still wanna visit with ya sometime, beer or no beer!

[3Phase]

Gouda Tao Zen Gears?

The inner cheese gives strength.

The hardened outer shell protects the inner cheese. Like the Goulda wheel, it will yield under stress so it is not easily broken and it will assume its original shape if not stressed beyond its limits.


Regards,

Scott (trying really hard not to laugh while typing the above)

[jurgenkoppen]

Iam skippin'the washer

Those worried about the gear rubbing on the C-clip for some reason.. it's the same, if not harder steel than the washer, and after having them apart again after the fix on several occasions, I've never seen any noticeable wear on the clip.

As to the innitial statement in this thread, it almost sounds like there's a gear alignment problem. Either a bent shift fork, as stated, (Remember these forks are numbered 1-3 with #1 near the shifter) or also make sure the bolt under your clutch basket that holds this shaft against the case hasn't backed out.

Good luck.

Tod

Thank you all, isn't is great to live in the 21st century.....?
I'll roll with Tod's advise, because like him, I wonder why the c clip should wear the hardened 2nd gear ( aka the tao zen cheese wheel) any worse than it would wear the washer itself. Besides, I do not like to involve the machinist to make space for a washer: The fun for me is to do it with my own resources, and some help from you in cyber space.
Tod, I am not clear on the 'bolt under the clutch basket'. Can you clarify...?
I think he was referring to the bolt in the end of the secondary shaft (the shaft that holds all the gears that get dremmel'd). Not the shift fork shaft.
Is this what you meant.....? And if so, are you indicating that my problems could be solved by tightening it after removing the clutch...?
I am a bit cloudy in my memory of how it looks in there.Thanks, J

[DGXSER]

My name ain't Tod, but I've been in there a few times. The bolt Tod is talking about it the bolt that holds the countershaft in under the clutch basket. Some have stated that bolt has come loose on them and they find it in the clutch cover or the oil pan. If that bolt is loose or out, the entire shaft of gears can move side to side, more than the entire engagement of the gears. So that could cause it. But I would think it is more likely you have a bent or worn shift fork.

[3Phase]

Thank you all, isn't is great to live in the 21st century.....?
I'll roll with Tod's advise, because like him, I wonder why the c clip should wear the hardened 2nd gear ( aka the tao zen cheese wheel) any worse than it would wear the washer itself. Besides, I do not like to involve the machinist to make space for a washer: The fun for me is to do it with my own resources, and some help from you in cyber space.

Yeah, it's just good to be alive, period, but the 21st century is the best one so far, evah!

I'll hang on to the washer and use it on Old Faithful when I tear it down later this year. Compared to the face of the gear teeth and the dogs and slots there is very little side thrust on 2nd gear. Machining the hub doesn't affect the integrity of the gear the same way as grinding the dogs and slots but it does uncover the inner cheese. Normally that would not be good at all.

The XS transmission, however, is fed pressurized oil. That's why you're not supposed to tow the bike; there's no oil pressure when the engine is not running. The pressurized oil that comes out from between the 2nd gear wheel and the shaft lubricates the hub and the washer and the clip. The gear hub won't wear even though it's been cut down to its inner cheese because there's a thin film of oil between the washer and the hub, just like there is between a soft, nodular iron crankshaft and the even softer bearing inserts.

Long-term, the reason for using a washer between any moving part and its retaining clip is so that the clip doesn't wear or move in the groove. Too much spin wears the clip and the groove. A washer will hold a 360 degree film of oil between the hub and the washer so there is no metal-to-metal contact, a c-clip will not. A washer will take most of the side thrust and won't spin the retaining clip in its groove.

Does it matter? Probably not!

Well, okay, how long are you going to keep the bike?

The wear on the retaining clip and its groove won't show up as short term wear unless the parts were fitted too close together (or too far apart!). Using the extra washer prevents wear in the long term. The bike ran for ~30 years with a washer the way Yamaha designed it. None of the people that have done the washer swap for 2nd gear have anywhere close to 30 years on their bikes after the mod so it's difficult to say if there is or is not any wear on the retaining clip and its groove.


Groovy!

Scott

[jurgenkoppen]

Yeah for detailed analysis

Hey all beloved gurus
Thanks again for taking the time to fill in the blanks in my perception.
Today is the day of surgery. The shop is cleaned up, the bike ready to be dismantled and turned, and I feel more educated and psyched for the upcoming exercise of mind over matter.
Hey Scott, may I use your phrase : 'The inner cheese gives strength' as one of my adjustable slogans?
It reminds me of my youth and Frank Zappa's Suzy Creamcheese, in whose development the Mothers had been ever so interested.....

[3Phase]

Hey Scott, may I use your phrase : 'The inner cheese gives strength' as one of my adjustable slogans?
It reminds me of my youth and Frank Zappa's Suzy Creamcheese, in whose development the Mothers had been ever so interested.....

Sure, go for it, Mr. Green Genes!

I don't remember if you're on dialup or not but here's a Frank present from last century!

(NSFW) Frank Zappa 1974

I remember watching this 'live' on TV when I was a teenager... the horror!


Regards,

Scott

[jurgenkoppen]

Stinkfoot might be akin to Limburger cheese, simply the best

FZ is a true American legend. I just love the guy.
I learned American listen to his lyrics, back in Germany. Especially love his lingo, such as 'conceptual continuity', his 'panchromatic resonance and other highly ambiant domains', and as already stated in my signature, his irreverence and happy disregard for tabus.
Tranny now is exposed and cogs are on the bench for some cheese slicing tomorrow. It is good to have a second (or third) bike on a sunny day, while the main buck is under the knife.
Thanks for the flashback