Will a low battry keep an XS11 from starting?

[1st bike]

i'm with ivan! it is the battery dude. i played this game already for you. it sucked. i spent hours doing stuff i didn't need to do while the battery charged. like 2 days worth of charging. got a new battery and it went. an 80 dollar battery will save you more than switching out a starter (at around 100) new coils and plugs and wires (priced them, but can't remember what they were going to run me) and hours and HOURS spent chasing this down. buy the battery, through it on the bike, if it fires, great, if it doesn't try for a minute and bring it back to the store. just tell the dude the problem, and they are usually more than willing to work with you.

[trbig]

Bad battery.

That will help it crank. Backfiring is another problem. Your valves should all be closed when the plugs spark.


Tod

[cywelchjr]

Bad battery.

That will help it crank. Backfiring is another problem. Your valves should all be closed when the plugs spark.


Tod

Also, if it's cranking and just doing a bit of backfiring, it could be that you need to swap the primary coil wires. The symptoms sound like what I was getting after changing my engine and when I swapped the primary coil wires (the hots not the grounds) it started on the first try. If the primary wires are reversed for some reason (even if the colors matched that can be the case) an occasional backfire is exactly what you can get. It can't hurt to try swapping them, and it just might get it running (it did for me)

[Mashermoto]

OK, you guys are going to proclaim blasphemy when I tell you this...but the battery is GOOD

I took it to the local auto parts store and had it stress tested. It took about 10 minutes to complete but was handed back to me fully charged to 14 v and proclaimed good

So...it's back to this question...what the #$%^& is wrong here

BTW, before I get too far into this, I found that MikesXS.com stocks AGM batteries for all makes of bikes now. The same XS Power, CBTX24HL-BS, Part No. 61-2035, with 350 cold crank amps is $59. That's not too bad for an AGM

Now then, the battery is good and the starter is good. So next I suppose is to check the grounds and get a new solenoid.

Any good advice on purchasing a new solenoid I'll probably end up using the Partnmore.com unit for $45.

Sorry there were no winner winner chicken dinners betting on the dead battery

[Ivan]

Was the guy at the parts store an ASE certificated tech with an electric specialty in all three major domestic auto makers, having ten or more years of experiance with well into the thousands of starting system diags on everything from ATVs to WWII aircraft?

I'm just asking.....

[DiverRay]

OK, you have a NEW ENGINE, and are trying to start it for the first time. Pull the spark plugs and let the battery turn it over for a TOTAL of two minutes!!
crank for about ten seconds, wait 30, crank ten, etc. This will allow the oil to flow through the entire engine and coat everything. I would also check the spark while doing this, and the timing. If you hook an inductive light to #1 or #4, you can verify that it fires close to the "F" mark. If it seems quite a ways off, switch colored leads at the ignition coils and try again.
Other than that, good luck and let us know what you find next.

[crazy steve]

I'm on my lunch hour and tried to get the battery stress checked at an auto store. Found out the Partsnmore battery is not marked as to the cold crank hour rating that has to be know to do the test. So I sent a request to partsnmore tech support.

I would just get another battery and find out for sure...but Partnmore cost is $80 and auto stores are $90 I can't just go buying at those prices on a whim

BTW, if I have to get a new battery, are the AGM batteries recommended? I started buying them because I hated messing with acid and water refills. Everything I read says they are better

I'll repeat what I said at the start; I think you have a bad connection, and it's probably a ground. A poor connection can cause high current draw, mimicing a bad battery.

AGM batteries? Personally, I don't like them. They cost more and are sealed 'no maintenance', but the opposite of that is you can't do any maintenance. I've had good luck with their cheaper older brothers, getting 6+ years out of them with proper care(one went almost 9 years). The fancy more expensive ones seem to last about 3 years, give or take...

And I never did think it was the battery...

YMMV

'78E original owner

[yamahaman]

Duh

Do not jump ANY motorcycle with a running automobile.The automobile has about 500 amps.This will answer that question.How many amps does a bike have?Not too many people really understand electrical systems on bikes anyway.Get a new Yuasa battery,Properly service and charge it upon purchase(12V key off @ batt.,13.9=14.1V max @ 2-3 grand) and then hope and pray that you didn't blow the diodes in the rectifier as well as destroy any other part of your electrical system.The one fella that said get the timing plate close as you can to the original paint marks is correct.That should be close enough to start.Then adjust with timing light.make sure your carbs are PROPERLY cleaned and if all is correct.It'll start.One that knows nothing about bikes should get to a qualified tech and not guess unless you have an XSive amount of $.If you need help contact me and we'll go through it together and figure it out.And no,I don't want any chicken dinners.

[cywelchjr]

Do not jump ANY motorcycle with a running automobile.The automobile has about 500 amps.This will answer that question.How many amps does a bike have?Not too many people really understand electrical systems on bikes anyway.Get a new Yuasa battery,Properly service and charge it upon purchase(12V key off @ batt.,13.9=14.1V max @ 2-3 grand) and then hope and pray that you didn't blow the diodes in the rectifier as well as destroy any other part of your electrical system.The one fella that said get the timing plate close as you can to the original paint marks is correct.That should be close enough to start.Then adjust with timing light.make sure your carbs are PROPERLY cleaned and if all is correct.It'll start.One that knows nothing about bikes should get to a qualified tech and not guess unless you have an XSive amount of $.If you need help contact me and we'll go through it together and figure it out.And no,I don't want any chicken dinners.

I'm gonna call BS on this one! I have many many years of electrical and electronics experience (used to teach electronics) and an auto charging system and a motorcycle charging system both charge at the same rate. Yes the car system has more amps available, but the number of amps drawn has NOTHING to do with now much is available unless your running a dead short. Current draw is a function of voltage and resistance, and you could have a million amps available with a specific resistance and voltage you will always get the same current through the resistance. Yes, you can damage a charging system if it's poorly designed, which the XS1100 system is not (other than having rather low capacity). Some auto charging systems can be damaged when jumping another if you don't unhook them as soon as the jumped vehicle starts, but that is rare as most properly designed systems will just drop back their output voltage if it's higher than expected. That said, some honda systems WILL be damaged by fighting with another charging system because of how they regulate the charging, but then hondas are known for burning out batteries because of how their charging systems work.

I've been known to jump a car with a motorcycle, but it's not easy and you will be there for a while, but if it's the only choice you have you do what you have to do.

[XJOK2PLAY]

+1 w/ Cy.... I think that's why there's a device on ALL charging systems known as a voltage regulator... just because a charging device is CAPABLE of high ampacity does not mean it puts that much out at all times. It only will put out what the regulator senses it needs to keep the system balanced.

And, I have NO idea where you are able to buy such massive alternators... but most of the ones I've worked around are rated at either 75- 125 amps...TOPS. A 500 amp alternator would be SWEEEET!

And Steve, that's good that you never thought it was the battery... but I read from Mashermoto in the earlier posts where he was saying that the battery voltage would fall to around 8 volts after just a short bit of cranking... that sounds to me indicative of failing a load test right there!

Now, that could be a mistake he made, and he just thought it fell to 8 volts, but it didn't... and that's why it's now passed a load test at the parts store... but then again, I've made a few trips recently to my local, small town auto parts store... and I can tell ya.... a lot of those guys don't know there head from a hole in the ground! And, that could still be a factor in the equation... maybe not.

The best advice I can tell ya, Mashermoto... (and I am an ASE Certified auto mechanic... I currently hold 7 of 9 certifications... 2 away from Master Certification... and was a fleet mechanic for many years... I am also a licensed electrical Journeyman in the State of Okla., so I feel I'm somewhat qualified to try to help ya out a bit here...

Best advice... start @ the battery, work through the connections & switches... especially all grounds... then go to the devices... use your test meter... don't get frustrated... take your time, step by step...

Couple of things I've learned over the years about electrical... when something acts really crazy, most times it's a bad ground connection...
and the other... some electrical gremlins can sure be tough to figure out, and can really be a mystery... but once you figure it out & think about it... it always ends up making sense why it acted that way.

I'd just be DARN sure your battery is good first... otherwise you can sure work yourself to death before getting back to square one. If indeed it passes a good load test, great... mark it off the list and go to the next thing.

I'd also heed Ray's advice. If it's a new motor, it could just be tight... and it wouldn't hurt a darn thing to do that as well. If ya pull the plugs, and that darn battery goes down quick doing that... then ya got either a bad battery or bad connections. Should be as simple as that.

I know how frustrating it can get, though... especially if everybody starts throwing out advice from the cheap seats...

Hang in there... step by step... you'll get it.
And, while I'm at it... that's a beautiful 11 ya got there! Love the paint & graphics. Way cool!
HTH's
Bob

[crazy steve]

...Not too many people really understand electrical systems on bikes anyway.....

Sorry, but you're one of the many. If you understand electrical theory, what the system is on makes no difference. As Cy said, current is always (with one exception) controlled by voltage and resistance. No matter how many amps are available, the circuit will only draw what it needs.

The one exception? Motor loads; as voltage goes down (and load doesn't), the motor will draw more current in an attempt to do the same work. If you've ever burned up an electric weedeater with a too small/long extension cord, this is why....

Does this make any difference here? Not a bit to anything other than the starting circuit. You could damage that, but only if you run it contiunously for too long. Even the smaller bike battery has enough current to do this, it'll just start a smaller fire. We all know better than to do that, right?

You do want to disconnect the 'jumping' vehicle if it's running as quickly as possible after the 'jumped' vehicle has started. The reason for this is alternators don't output 'true' DC such as you get from a battery. What they put out is 'pulsating' DC, and running two non-sychronized alternators into a common circuit will cause harmonic feedback that's hard on both the diodes and the regulators.

'78E original owner

[Larrym]

She Blinded Me with Science.....

And Hit Me With Tech-no-lo-gy.

Mashermoto,

Hah!!

(Everytime I have had a battery tested at a parts store they've clucked, "No Good." I SOooo wanna call shenanigans on them but that would make the next time I come in for something a little more than awkward..)

Ok So you know where your goin' next, right? ( To another parts store to have it checked by another dude.....maybe with the same results? Possibly Difernt??) I hope you're keeping your sense of humor about this cause if not we'll be sure to remind ya..

On to something which may/may not be useful. Remember this thing here:



The back side looks like this:



Notice the way that there's a large slot on the top and a small slot on the bottom. Each slot is for a different size wire and each slot corresponds to the upper/lower scale for amperes.

I put the ammeter lower slot here, on the positive cable leading to the starter solenoid:



It looks like this when it's all ready for the test:




Photos fall short on showing what went on so here's a video:



Ok so the amp reading from the smaller/lower scale peaked out but really didn't "bend the needle". I'd say that the current is between 80-90 Amps Max. I tried the ammeter with the cable in the larger slot for the larger scale but got less than 100 Amps in the crank test.

Bike was cold/not warmed up at all. Spark plug caps were removed and then grounded to the engine via alligator clips. Just for giggles I read the voltage drop across the battery which was fully charged from my ride two days ago: from 12.5 DCV to 12.1 DCV. I waited in between crankings for the battery voltage to climb back up before I hit the starter again.

I measured the voltage drop from the engine ground to the starter side of the solenoid: From 12.5 DCV down to 9.4-9.6 DCV. I guess that's ok cause I could have cranked the starter lots more times before the battery would go belly up.

I just hope that these readings from a functional bike help you or someone down the way.

Keep letting the data you find drive your decisions...not the other way around.

[crazy steve]

[QUOTE=XJOK2PLAY;259028 And Steve, that's good that you never thought it was the battery... but I read from Mashermoto in the earlier posts where he was saying that the battery voltage would fall to around 8 volts after just a short bit of cranking... that sounds to me indicative of failing a load test right there![/QUOTE]

Dropping below 9v only means something if you know what load you've put on the battery. Take a good battery and exceed it's CCA rating and it will drop below 9 volts; that's why it's important when doing a load test to know that rating. So a dragging/worn starter and/or poor connections can pull more than that amount, making you think the battery is bad at a glance. The fact that he hooked another battery to the bike and saw little or no improvement (when there is now more amps available) is a very good indication that the battery is not the fault.

'78E original owner

Licensed Journeyman Inside Wireman 30+ years (the only 'unlimited' license in our state), Licensed Electrical Administrator, and taught AC theory to apprentices.

[petejw]

If your happy that the battery is ok, even with a flat battery,
a jump start should get it running.
i
d be checking your valve timing, make sure the
dots are lining up on the cam, are the cams stock
or aftermarket?

to set up your ignition timing statically, put the crank at 5degrees btdc at the pointer, adj the timing plate so the pick up coil aligns with the rotor, that will get you close enuff to get it started.

if the ignition timing is out the engine will crank over slowly especially if its advanced.

[Larrym]

Bypass Technique..

Now for something which will provide you with useful info.

Now that your AGM has received a clean bill of health from someone who hasn't even graduated from a training course advertised on a matchbook cover: Put it back in.

The Redundant Ground:

Take that set of jumper cables out of your car and use it in an entirely new way. Take the negative lead of the cable and attach it to the negative terminal of the installed bike battery. Take the other end of the same negative cable and clamp it firmly to the engine some where. Then try to crank the bike again.

This bypasses any of the iffy cables/connections on the negative/ground side of the bikes system. If the bike cranks like it should then all signs point to a bad connection on the negative/grounding side of the system. Just for show you can remove the jumper cable, try to crank again, and if it's all wimpy again then there ya go.

I mean you've already verified the battery as good and the positive side of the system. There's only one other side left, right??

.